Sneaking in Overgrowth

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sfriedlander
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Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by sfriedlander » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:32 pm

I've played and enjoyed Lugaru and felt like the sneaking aspect of the game could be expanded. Most of the time you would sneak out in the open and sneak behind a walking rabbit for along time.

I feel like this aspect could be extended for Overgrowth seeing that it is being talked about as a ninja game in the tag line blog post. Here's some ideas:

More closed off areas:
Lugaru was full of very open areas that made me feel like i wasn't very sneaky even when i was executing an assassination. to fix this you could have town or city levels where there were lots of shady alleys, or buildings to go into. also you could avoid killing everyone altogether and just kill the leader by having alternate pathways.

More sneak attacks:
Lugaru only had one sneak attack where you had to crouch and sneak up to the enemy until you were very close and the execute the move. I felt like this wasn't really rabbit like. you could have a hidden pounce move where you crouch in the dark until a guard comes in sight and then jump him. (if i remember there was a pounce move in the first game, but it involved running animal style and that isn't very sneaky.) From there you could punch the hell outta him, assasinate him, steal his items and knock him out.

Pickpocketing and infiltration:
This would be a cool add on. stealing weapons before they even see you and then kicking the crap outta them. or stealing an item as a part of a mission and then getting the hell outta location before an onslaught of gaurds catch you.

The Game Looks Awesome though, thanks,

Sfriedlander

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Ozymandias
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Ozymandias » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:40 pm

Welcome newcomer

Unfortunately you must not know much about what's been going on. Lugaru was a sort of quick project, while Overgrowth will be a full-glown indie game. You can expect to have much better game mechanics.

look at this. I don't doubt with effort like this put into shadows they're just going to have them be a pretty effect. The player will probably be able to hide in these... maybe even the AI too =p

With more varied weapons I wouldn't mind seeing more sneak attacks... imagine sneak attacking with a pike somehow. That would be entertaining.

If stealing and such isn't in the full game, perhaps someone will make a mod where you play as a sneaky rat and steal stuff from the cats... but if you get caught then you get served on a platter for their dinner =p

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Johannes
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Johannes » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:14 am

There have been a few discussions dealing with how you can approach a fight, namely in the Secret Preorder Forum, and some blog posts as well.

It's pretty certain that there will be different ways to go about fighting, and that if you want to go all-out stealth ninja, that that would be a possibility.

As Ozy pointed out, the game is at a whole different level from Lugaru, and while I can say that I'm pretty certain most of the stuff you mentioned might be in the game I have to point out that it is -far- from done, and almost none of the even the basic game-play features have been implemented yet. But it's being worked on, and hopefully soon the animations editor will be complete enough for the devs to start making animations for combat.

That said, I think your suggestions are very valuable. You should pre-order so you gain access to the SPF, where you can also test the current alpha builds.

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Jendraz
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Jendraz » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:18 am

Nice first post. I think you make good points, the sneaking aspects should be expanded, and it probably will. Being chased could be cool too, the point being escape instead of combat.

You should preorder. If David could make a game like Lugaru completely by himself in highschool, think of what he can do with a talented team now that he has graduated college.

sfriedlander
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by sfriedlander » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:32 am

i totally would pre order but i am seriously lacking in the funding department.

I was reading up on the races.

The race that could totally take advantage of sneak tactics are the rats. Rats in real life like to hide from everyone and hopefully don;t get seen. I hoping that all the races play radically different...that would be awesum.

Rick
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Rick » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:45 am

I found the sneaking in Lugaru too slow and not that enjoyeble. The sneaking needs to be alot faster in overgrowth. It would also be pretty cool if you could stand on a roof and jump down on a enemy to do some sort of airbourne sneak kill. I beleve they did use a airbourne attack in Lugaru but it wasn't instant kill so it was pretty useless. Another thing i would like to se is combo stealth kills. For example you jump down on a enemy and bounces of his head and lands on a different enemy, or you could use that bounce to get back up to higher ground and continue to stay hidden.

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Johannes
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Johannes » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:47 am

I'm not so sure if instant kills from above would be such a good idea, but I absolutely agree that stealth combat can be really elaborated upon to make it a viable alternative to running in full-force with swords a-blazing.

For example, instead of an instant kill, jumping down could daze them and then allow you do either do a good bit of damage, but you also need skill to time it right, just like how in a full frontal assault you need to time your counters and combos right. There needs to be a similar learningcurve/payoff involved for being skilled as in full fighting, though some parts, and thought needs to go into it. for example, if you are on a rooftop, you could take a vase and drop it onto a guard to kill him, but the sound would also alert other nearby guards.
Dragging has been discussed before, for hiding bodies and such, That'd be a great addition to deepen the stealth gameplay as well.

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Endoperez
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Endoperez » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:02 am

Rick wrote:I found the sneaking in Lugaru too slow and not that enjoyeble. The sneaking needs to be alot faster in overgrowth. It would also be pretty cool if you could stand on a roof and jump down on a enemy to do some sort of airbourne sneak kill. I beleve they did use a airbourne attack in Lugaru but it wasn't instant kill so it was pretty useless. Another thing i would like to se is combo stealth kills. For example you jump down on a enemy and bounces of his head and lands on a different enemy, or you could use that bounce to get back up to higher ground and continue to stay hidden.
I don't agree with the severity of your chances, but both the sneaking speed and the "death from above"-type attacks should be improved. In Lugaru, sneaking speed was almost exactly same as enemy walking speed. You couldn't get closer to the enemy just by walking, which is very unintuitive. The speed boost wouldn't have to be huge, though - you are sneaking, not running.
I never managed to do the drop-into-an-enemy-from-above attack. It shouldn't be THAT hard to do. I don't think it should be instant kill, but it should make your enemy fall down and in most cases, cause him to be paralyzed/confused for long enough for you to get few hits in. Usually this would mean bashing him against a wall, which would then kill him. It would allow you to get a near-instant kill, but it would still take some skill to pull it off.

Rick
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Rick » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:37 am

Well I only think "death from above" should be instant kill if the enemy didn't know where you are hiding and that you jump down from a high enough point, but you guys are probably right. It would make it too easy to take down a enemy.

I also agree that it is far to hard to land a "death from above", its mostly because you couldn't change the moving direction mid air. Im not really sure how they are suposed to fix death from above without editing the jumping.

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Endoperez
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Endoperez » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:01 am

Rick wrote:Well I only think "death from above" should be instant kill if the enemy didn't know where you are hiding and that you jump down from a high enough point, but you guys are probably right. It would make it too easy to take down a enemy.

I also agree that it is far to hard to land a "death from above", its mostly because you couldn't change the moving direction mid air. Im not really sure how they are suposed to fix death from above without editing the jumping.
There are several ways to do it. Basically, SOMEthing is done by the computer.

If timing is almost right, your character acts as if it was right, if you'd land almost on top of an enemy, you land exactly on him, etc.
Alternatively, it could be a spesific combination of keys and position that is readied, and then your character tries to jump on the enemy. Like the leg cannon requires you to move forward and hold attack while pressing jump, this could require looking down at an opponent and holding a key or keys down, then pressing jump. If the enemy was too far away or moved away from range, you'd miss, but if he was close enough long enough, you land on him and deal damage.

Rick
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Rick » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:22 am

yeah, that would probably work :D

sfriedlander
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by sfriedlander » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:22 pm

Maybe knockout moves?

that jump from above idea combined with a quick jump back up on to the roof sounds hella cool. Dragging would also be cool. I also agree with the sneaking being the same speed as walking. In the first game i found my self trailing after dudes for like 5 minutes which kinda ticked me off.

"stealth combat can be really elaborated upon to make it a viable alternative to running in full-force with swords a-blazing." Jo- Shadow

I think that the biggest part of expanding the sneaking in overgrowth is that it would allow two ways to play the game and make it less repetitive. That way you could say, maybe i want to go in all "guns" blazing this level. Or maybe i just wanna do some stealth action this time. For me this would increase the re playability of the levels vastly.

"you could take a vase and drop it onto a guard to kill him, but the sound would also alert other nearby guards."

ya another issue is the onlyway of an enemy alerting another enemy was running to them. Maybe factor in more sight and sound stuff. And even factor in how different races react to sneak attacks.

Maybe have the rat race be very interconnected with each others senses, so that if you do a sneak kill many other guards come to see whats up. Compare this to wolves who could be more independent and believe in survival of the fittest, so that if you pull a sneak attack on a wolf it would be rare that others in the surrounding area would notice. This would be due to egos instead of more of a brotherhood personality of the rats.

"Detection: If the player has not been seen by an enemy they will probably have a modified attack move set at their disposal. Remember the stealth kills from Lugaru." -Overgrowth Fighting System Design Doc, 1st Draft By John on February 16th, 2009.

Please make a whole different set of moves for this. Knockout moves, stealth kills, stealth attacks, etc.

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Zaphon
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Zaphon » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:37 am

I see people mention that stealth in Lugaru is too slow, but you can actually roll silently, which lets you sneak up on enemies very quickly. You can also jump from far away and land behind an enemy and perform a stealth kill if you're a smooth operator.

But yeah, some more stealth options and maneuvers in Overgrowth would be cool.
Like tricking enemies by making noise, hinding in shadows, hanging from ledges, etc.

Poonhat
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Poonhat » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:10 pm

Hmm.
I need to pre-order this game.
The first was amazing, this one is looking to be mind blowingly awesome.

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Glabbit
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Re: Sneaking in Overgrowth

Post by Glabbit » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:40 am

Poonhat wrote:Hmm.
I need to pre-order this game.
The first was amazing, this one is looking to be mind blowingly awesome.
I couldn't have put it any better myself.
Mainly, of course, because I do my best to refrain from using the word 'awesome'.

And welcome! =D

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