I regret everything.

Anything else
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Phoenixwarrior141
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I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:34 pm

Quinnspiracy Theory: The Five Guys Saga

Don't know how much of it's true. But it seems like it's a hit for video game feminism.

Remember when I was misogynistic?
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EPR89
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Re: I regret everything.

Post by EPR89 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:00 pm

I hate people like this so much.

They drag down constructive feminism, the gaming community as a whole and in the end reinforce all the bad stereotypes that are circulating about gaming- Really glad that the bullshit she has been pulling is getting unearthed now. Seems like video game journalism needs a good purge, though. The impact she managed to make due to blind social justice among those people is crazy.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:14 pm

I really have mixed opinions on feminism.

I love the cause, it's perfectly reasonable.

I hate the vast minority of people that make it look bad (Anita, this Chick, the entirety of tumblr) and are FAR more vocal about feminism then those who make it look GOOD.

I also hate it's intrusiveness. It intrudes on dominantly male pastimes and generally niche areas where men like to interact with other men (Uh...). This isn't like football or sports in general to clothing and books (Hate to reinforce stereotypes, but this was the best I could think of), software and software development is a grey zone. It doesn't belong to men and everyone could easily do it equally, but it's a guy thing. Games are theirs. That's why people get REALLY defensive about things like "Indie games are collectively shitty" or "Gaming is childish". To people, devs (Even EA could admit this) and gamers alike, gaming is more then a crappy hobby. It's a way of life, non-gamers don't see this and those who feel ignorant (Or entitled) enough to call it a nerdy hobby generally get angry responses. Feminism is the same thing, it goes against the male ownership of gaming and even for experienced people in the industry see this as threatening their favorite pasttime and worse, taking something that's theirs.

I also hate how it adds a new audience to the industry. This might seem confusing so here's an example of my reasoning:

Say only one person was buying games. This person liked games like Gods Will Be Watching or FTL, all games will be tailored to his tastes and enjoyments. As this audience grows and diversifies more things appear, such as indie devs, new genres and more marketing. Feminists (i.e. People who have problems with bewbs in video games) would add a new audience (Potentially large one) to that pool and further push minorities into the minority and quickly result in mainstream games containing less of the things WE like to accommodate feminists.

Hell, games are getting accused of sexism because they are story based and the story requires a male character.

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EPR89
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Re: I regret everything.

Post by EPR89 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:42 pm

I don't really get what you want to say with your last long paragraph. Seems like a lot of hogwash to me, to be honest. New audiences are not by default bad. But maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are pissed off about, probably because I didn't really get what this would be exactly.

Something that bothers me a bit about your point is that you use the word feminist as if it described one homogeneous group. Like this link your bring up, as an example of what feminists usually complain about.
I don't know much about that game, but since it seems to have a fixed protagonist. So I find it hard to believe that this was a serious topic or that the poster knew what she was talking about.
In games with a character creator and especially in games that allow for a significant amount of roleplaying and personal character development (the poster in your link mentions Brink, a very good example) the story does absolutely not require a male protagonist. Not giving people the option to play as a female character could hardly be justified there.

The really important notion that I want you to take from it is this: there are not the gaming feminists. There is a huge continuum, ranging from those who just would like to see a reduction of some female stereotypes for example in order have an easier time immersing themselves in the experience, all the way to those outlandish fascist-like individuals who do not want equality, but are actually more interested in waging war against anything commonly associated with males. I am firmly convinced that these people are a small minority, but sadly a very loud one that often drowns out the many reasonable voices.
I don't really like to play a huge bodybuilder brute when I play RPGs. In fact, I usually create characters that are very similar to myself. I can absolutely understand why a woman would not want to play an elven bikini model or be forced to play as a male when there is no good reason to limit the player's choice.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Assaultman67 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:44 am

Let's take a step back and recognize there is a pretty big spectrum of feminism

I'm pretty male-centric, but I've agreed with some feminists on a majority of points and completely disagreed with other feminists on different points.

There is a lot of gender affirmative actions that seem to be taken that I disagree with. If you have to lower the bar of expectations for women to compete in a male dominant field, then the bar shouldn't be lowered.

That being said there are lots of fields in which women are actually better than men. Surprisingly, there seems to be a trend that manufacturing quality oriented products is one of them. Do we lower the bar of quality because men have a trend of not being able to obtain the same results? No.

I believe that women and men are equal in responsibilities and power, but there is going to be some asymmetry in ability on each side due to the physiological differences. Chemical differences in our brains will cause us to act and think differently, maybe not extremely different, but differently.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Endoperez » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:44 pm

I'm a gamer and a feminist. I'm also a game dev. I know devs who are feminists and devs who diss feminists.

I hate the way some women become targets of personal hate campaigns on the internet. Some men too, but I don't hear about them. I think this latest thing is that. The articles I've seen name the woman who (according to her ex) exchanged sex for better rewievs.


I haven't seen the journalists named or shamed to such extent. Their actions on this are worse than hers (assuming the claims are true).

A dev is supposed to market the product. Means would have been wrong.
Journalists are supposed to report objectively and truthfully. Abusing their power to affect masses to get personal benefits would have been very wrong.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:50 am

I'll just leave this here...

Quinnspiracy Theory: In-N-Out Edition

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Endoperez » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:47 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I'll just leave this here...

Quinnspiracy Theory: In-N-Out Edition
You're saying very little in this post. Why do you think this video is more interesting than the first one?

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:04 pm

Endoperez wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I'll just leave this here...

Quinnspiracy Theory: In-N-Out Edition
You're saying very little in this post. Why do you think this video is more interesting than the first one?
Around the same, except the fact that this seems to focus more on censorship and in the end, that's more interesting.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Vespabros » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:01 pm

Glad to see the wolfire community isn't full of whiteknights who would defend this hypocrite Zoe for the shit she pulled.

Feminism isn't so much the focus of the rage going on about this, although it is a key piece; it's more about how easily one can tamper with the integrity of gaming journalism, while using "muh feminism" as a defense to try to defuse it. People who use feminism as a tool of persecution in their favor, and not as a political belief, are real sacks of trash. Im glad she was caught red handed, and that her devious actions backfired.

That being said, it's unfortunate that feminism has lost it's original interpretation; "equal rights and opportunities for both men and women." Now, that definition is outdated, and has become, to society's mind at least, "Giving women more rights, and stopping men from being misogynists." By the former definition, i'd say most of society is "feminist". It's been twisted so much in modern society that many people wouldn't even want to label themselves as one anymore. A shame. Anyways, i hope Zoe is made an example of, because she's not the only person that has done dirty dealing in the industry. She was just caught doing it.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:16 pm

Depression Quest is crap anyways.

Also: Image

Hehe. Moderation staff can be hilarious sometimes.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Endoperez » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:38 am

Vespabros wrote:Glad to see the wolfire community isn't full of whiteknights who would defend this hypocrite Zoe for the shit she pulled.

Feminism isn't so much the focus of the rage going on about this, although it is a key piece; it's more about how easily one can tamper with the integrity of gaming journalism, while using "muh feminism" as a defense to try to defuse it. People who use feminism as a tool of persecution in their favor, and not as a political belief, are real sacks of trash. Im glad she was caught red handed, and that her devious actions backfired.
Feminism is needed because opinions and beliefs are still shapes in such a way that women are in a worse position than men. For example, here you are saying that Zoe was in the wrong, that feminism was the reason or the tool in her alleged wrongdoing instead of money or sexual favours.
You also claim that anyone who defends Zoe is "white-knighting", that is, acting, as if it was impossible to disagree with anything on this at all.

You haven't named any of the journalists. Why does this one woman matter more to you than the journalists?

How can you be happy that an angry ex could upset the life of a normal person by making some claims on the internet, and have her private life become a meme and a mess on her professional environment? Everyone she will work with in the next few decades will know about this. This is libel and bullying and just plain wrong even if the allegations are right, because there's no way for her to defend herself, or anyone to defend her.
That being said, it's unfortunate that feminism has lost it's original interpretation; "equal rights and opportunities for both men and women." Now, that definition is outdated, and has become, to society's mind at least, "Giving women more rights, and stopping men from being misogynists." By the former definition, i'd say most of society is "feminist". It's been twisted so much in modern society that many people wouldn't even want to label themselves as one anymore. A shame. Anyways, i hope Zoe is made an example of, because she's not the only person that has done dirty dealing in the industry. She was just caught doing it.

Feminism also hasn't been "equality for both men and women". Look into the name. It's "make women equal with men", with focus on the women. Why is this an actual difference and not just pedantic wordplay? Because feminism has its roots in the fact that women couldn't vote, couldn't wear trousers, couldn't own property like men could, and so on.

Men are systematically given more than women.
This is so systematic that many men won't even realize those differences.

Not understanding this doesn't make men misogynists. There is a term feminists use to try and remind men that their have an inherently better position in society. This word is "privileged".

This was and in many ways still is the goal of feminism:
Image

That picture has been taken in 1970s. In Iran.

Feminism is about women being able to choose what they wear, where they go, getting an education and a job if they want to. Driving a car, or a scooter.

Things such as "men don't get custody of common children in a divorce" or "men are supposed to be able to fix everything in a house" and so on are inequalities raising from difference social expectations. Breaking down social roles is a part of feminism, but first wave mostly focused on legal equality, second wave on economical equality but also somewhat traditional gender roles. Social roles, gender stereotypes etc. are a more recent phenomenon, and many feminists are tackling it too, and when they tackle it the ones I've talked to always acknowledge that they're harmful to women and men both.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Endoperez » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:12 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I'll just leave this here...

Quinnspiracy Theory: In-N-Out Edition
This is an unbelieavable load of crap. Seriously, it's steaming. I couldn't bear to watch more than a minute of it. It wallowed on this melodramatic angsty, group-think self-made drama.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s4nmr1/
"Internetaristocrat did the main video on this, a channel mostly dedicated to debunking SJW topics and complaining about how prevalent they are in todays media."

"Transparency in all things is important. People are going to have friends in the industry, that's natural. They are also going to try and help them when they can, they just need to be straight up about it and be very careful about keeping their bias in check."

This. There's no knowing who's actually doing what, where, and how. The only thing I know is that I can't trust any source of information on this sorry bit of news, or on games industry in general, because most people are biased, and not bothering to keep it in check, and not disclosing that they are biased. However, games journalism and the articles it provides are better than random internet forums for facts (instead of opinions, whichc admittedly are good for reviews), and I appreciate them for that.


"TL:DR - If Zoey Quinn did engage in censorship via the abuse of the DMCA on Youtube then I thoroughly condemn her actions as being both fucking stupid and unethical. If outlets did provide her favourable coverage because she had intimate relations with some of the writers, they're goddamn idiots for doing it, why the hell would you compromise the trust of your readers for that? The shitstorm is too insane right now to make a huge amount of sense of and I have no idea what is true and what isn't. Cooler heads prevail, heard of that phrase? Calm the fuck down and things might become clearer. Also please stop shouting at me, thanks."

This exactly. With the emphasis on "If", '"if" and "the shitstorm is too insane right now".

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:41 pm

Endoperez wrote: This is an unbelieavable load of crap. Seriously, it's steaming. I couldn't bear to watch more than a minute of it. It wallowed on this melodramatic angsty, group-think self-made drama.
Now now, you need to give me a reason for this to be what you claim it is, hooray.
Endoperez wrote: You also claim that anyone who defends Zoe is "white-knighting", that is, acting, as if it was impossible to disagree with anything on this at all.
No, it's not possible.

You need a serious Tumblr addiction not to call this bullshit out as bullshit.

Particularly because Depression Quest is shit.


You haven't named any of the journalists. Why does this one woman matter more to you than the journalists?
Mainly because the names aren't exactly out there and Zoe Quinn is the main focus of the scandal?
How can you be happy that an angry ex could upset the life of a normal person by making some claims on the internet,
That's an awful lot of bullshit that Zoe seems to be running with for just an angry ex. Particularly because she ruined a feminist Game Jam and made a different one particularly to scam people.
and have her private life become a meme
Try again, it's a statement for everything wrong with feminism, the game industry, and gaming journalism.
and a mess on her professional environment?
You mean doing nothing and developing shit games?
Everyone she will work with in the next few decades will know about this.
And they should. A woman that can get this far with manipulation and sex should probably remain out of a lot of people's lives.
This is libel and bullying and just plain wrong even if the allegations are right, because there's no way for her to defend herself, or anyone to defend her.
Bullshit. You shouldn't defend this. Besides the fact that you could (And people are) defend her with "lol misogyny" or "lol feminism".

Feminism also hasn't been "equality for both men and women". Look into the name. It's "make women equal with men",
That doesn't seem to help your cause. At all. Especially since this still lets feminazis be feminists and intrude on every other thing men like to do exclusively with other men and keeping men from doing anything that women like or need exclusively.

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Re: I regret everything.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:28 pm

Also, this makes me laugh

Image

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