Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:38 pm

Korban3 wrote:I think this discussion is ridiculous. The solution isn't to fix what we do wrong and target a specific audience.
The actual solution is to simply produce an equal number of games with oversexualized male characters that pander to a female audience. I, for one, will be releasing patches for all of my projects that replace all of the male outfits with speedos and tear-away muscle shirts.
Or it should be for both sides to grow the fuck up and be okay with protagonists of the opposite gender.

I'm not against Alien Isolation but I still hate feminism and everyone related with it.

GamerGate is okay with similar things.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Korban3 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:55 pm

Don't fight this feeling, Pheonix.
Embrace it.
[+] Embrace it
Image

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Vespabros » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:02 pm

Endoperez wrote: The trick is that it's not, indeed, female 'gamers'. That denotes a specific subculture. This is about people who play games, at least sometimes, and includes social games, casual games and so on.
I think that, like femanism, gaming should break down into several sub categories and be treated as such. These discussions over the female role in video games are almost always caused by a home console or home console quality PC game, never a mobile game.

Just an FYI, I only read up to the "Fallout" section of your article provided..not feeling like reading a wall of text tonight

So this candy analogy started with an initial situation where a large majority of men purchased their product more than women. Naturally, they spent more resources on marketing to a male audience. But the "Problem" arises when they start getting carried away and "throw women under the bus". Sure, it's a dirty tactic, but it makes them more money. Can you really blame them for just wanting to make more money? And besides, that's more to do with marketing rather than a developers creation, which quite possibly has different motivations for it's characteristics.

How many examples would be enough for you to think "token female characters" still are prevalent?

Well, how many examples of strong female roles would be enough for you to think "token female characters" aren't prevalent?
Endoperez wrote:Bayonetta 2 doesn't need to justify its sexualized character IMO, but it should accept criticism for the choice.
Who are we to criticize an artistic choice made by a developer? Should we criticize Paul Manships Dancer and Gazelles for having Exposed breasts? Image
Endoperez wrote:Men, and our sexuality, shouldn't be grouped under a single simple banner like that. You should accept that some men like boobs, some men don't.
I don't think we need any statistics for this one...but most straight men do, and that's why they're an effective feature when marketing to men, considering the majority of men are straight.
Endoperez wrote:men must be strong and independent; they can't show weakness such as crying, and if they're taking care of kids instead of earning money for the family they're looked down upon.


I believe there are an equal amount of stereotypes towards both men an women yet not an equal amount of effort to stop them. My problem with feminism is that they only pay attention to half of the problem.
Endoperez wrote:I first started talking with a group of feminists about 2 years ago (your post describes my stances from that time rather accurately, although communism as a political curseword is a rather American thing), and while we clashed a lot in the beginning I've since come to agree with them on many points.
I like to consider myself an open minded individual, what did they say in particular that made you change your views?
Endoperez wrote:Complaining does help, at least when it's(....)and how it was received.
Alright, that's a fair point
Endoperez wrote:What if it affects the score, but the details are shown, as below?
Bayonetta 2: 7½ (+1 if you don't mind the sexism)
Isn't this what the ESRB "sexual themes" warning is for? As for indie games, sure, they can mention that there are sexual themes in the game, but taking off points for it is not fair. It's too subjective.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:40 pm

Korban3 wrote:Don't fight this feeling, Pheonix.
Embrace it.
[+] Embrace it
Image
>Implies I was ever fighting it to begin with.

:twisted:

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:08 pm

I'll write a proper reply later, but yes, Dancer and Gazelles is critiqued.

There's books like this - the nudity isn't ignored, or prohibited, but reviewed and analyzed.

Her gentle innocence is highlighted by her connection to the animals of the forest, etc. Not unlike the Enchantress character of Dota 2. Traditional art is meticulously critiqued, by feminists, art historians and others. So why shouldn't games be critiqued?

Http://videogame-art.com/portfolio/ench ... et-dota-2/

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:50 am

Vespabros wrote:But the "Problem" arises when they start getting carried away and "throw women under the bus". Sure, it's a dirty tactic, but it makes them more money. Can you really blame them for just wanting to make more money?
I understand why things are like they are, but dislike the status quo. I'd like to see things change, and to change it, because I think it's both a good thing and will help the industry as a whole make more money.
How many examples would be enough for you to think "token female characters" still are prevalent?
Well, how many examples of strong female roles would be enough for you to think "token female characters" aren't prevalent?
Touché! :lol: I'll come back to it if I ever come up with a satisfying answer.
I don't think we need any statistics for this one...but most straight men do, and that's why they're an effective feature when marketing to men, considering the majority of men are straight.
"I believe there are an equal amount of stereotypes towards both men an women yet not an equal amount of effort to stop them."
Of course it works, but it should still pointed out when it becomes a generalization about all men!
I believe there are an equal amount of stereotypes towards both men an women yet not an equal amount of effort to stop them. My problem with feminism is that they only pay attention to half of the problem.
Some feminists think the problem is best solved by helping everyone, but yes, many only focus on one half of the problem. That's not an evil thing to do, though.

When you say it's a problem, what exactly do you mean? We're trying to do good, but we're not helping out a cause you think is more worthy. We hear that a lot. "Ebola is more important, you should fix that first" etc.

I can understand that you disagree on the importance of this movement, but I can't accept that as a reason to hinder a good cause. I don't know if you meant that or not.
I agree that a bad cause can and maybe even should be hindered, but I don't see how "we want to help these other people" as a bad thing.
I like to consider myself an open minded individual, what did they say in particular that made you change your views?
Any single point didn't convince me of much, but after I had known them for a while when I thought of feminism I remembered the discussions I had had with them, and not the quotes and claims of ridiculouss one-sidedness I had seen on the internet. So basically they weren't this:
But, much like communism, in practice there is corruption and people take advantage of certain things. Feminism now to many people has become putting down men and protecting women even more. Yes, there are still some cases where women aren't given the same rights, but there are also some cases where men don't have the same rights.
The discussions I had with them were admittedly VERY HEATED quite often, but as I came to understand their viewpoint I realized why they reacted very strongly to certain issues I had no idea about. And at some point I realized I agree with them, so I started thinking of myself as a feminist. The discussions got heated because I had basically been butting my head into their discussions without knowing what the discussion was about, because I was missing the context. Basically I had been this sealion:
[+] Sealion
Image
Isn't this what the ESRB "sexual themes" warning is for? As for indie games, sure, they can mention that there are sexual themes in the game, but taking off points for it is not fair. It's too subjective.
A review is a the reviewer's subjective opinion on the game. In my opinion, whether the reviewed game is fun and interesting should give about 50% of the final score, the rest being such things such as visuals, mechanics, how it compares to other games, amount of content etc.

ESRB shouldn't replace the review. Again, I believe that the review is subjective. If the reviewer doesn't like something, that should be mentioned EVEN IF there's an ESRB mark on the game itself.
For example, 'Crude Humor - Depictions or dialogue involving vulgar antics, including “bathroom” humor' - humour is very subjective, and a reviewer might find the jokes either hilarious, praising the game for being the funniest game of the year. In a differet case, a reviewer might find that the jokes fall flat and feel forced, making the gameplay experience that much worse.

"The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) ratings provide concise and objective information about the content in video games and apps so consumers, especially parents, can make informed choices."

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:20 pm

This is tangentially related to the "games are marketed at boys" thing - I found this through Gamasutra and haven't listened to this yet, but the grap is telling. Gamasutra description:
Computers were marketed as toys for boys, and girls were pushed aside. Parents began to buy computers for their boys far more than girls as a result.

Image

What this led to, reports NPR, is a situation by which men already had plenty of experience with computers by the time they went to university. Women did not have this experience, and were left feeling exiled by the culture surrounding computers.
GS: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2281 ... _games.php

podcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/ ... ped-coding

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:00 pm

Relevant information:

Apparently the co-founder of Polygon bullied the man who landed the Rosetta shuttle on the comet.

For (You guessed it) wearing a shirt gifted to him by his female friend that was "Misogynistic".

Bullied him.

To tears.

Over a fucking shirt.

Source

Source's Source 1

Apology

Woman who made the shirt

Sorry for the bump, this is relevant information though.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Korban3 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:03 am

Also relevant, men aren't marrying or having kids as much anymore. Because enough women have become toxic and because alimony payments will ruin your life, it's more risky to marry than it is to stay single. The source's source article even mentions something relevant, about women in bars hearing something about "Bitches" from other students. Lemme tell you what, they probably aren't reciting the latest hip hop lyrics.

They're probably talking about man-hating women who hate woman-hating men that they have no actual proof hate women.

This, like GameGate, is one of those things that is so incredibly fucking stupid, I almost want to kill myself because of it's childishness. Like, a guy who is a professional in his field wears a shirt and all of these women get their panties in a bunch and sand in their vaginas and start bitching.

Shut the fuck up.

If both sides of all of these issues can't shut the fuck up because they're being childish, then shut the fuck up because you're a damn women. And you there, manly-man. Shut the fuck up because you're a misogynist prick. Just find a reason to stop being fucking toxic and everyone chill out. I'm so sick of all of these fucks who think that they have the right to control others' lives and actions.


Like, in my state here. Guns are allowed, and background checks are required at all sales in gun stores and shows. So, all of these fucking people start voting and motherfucking Michael Bloomberg dumps millions into an ad campaign to require background checks for all transfers, including handing a gun to a buddy at the range. It's all fucked up, starting next month. Like, who the fuck are Moms Demand Action to strip away my rights.

The only people who get fucked over in this modern world are people who live and let live. I want to retain my rights and freedoms and privacy and not be bothered, so I give others the same courtesy. But no. God be fucking damned if they'll return the favor. All of these hyper-liberal fucks think it's ok to strip away the decency that others afforded them.

And I'm not even conservative. I think gay marriage is great, I would love to see an education system reform, I think electric cars and solar roads would be bad ass. But I'm so sick of people trampling over others who have given them so many common courtesies and so much leeway, out of human compassion. Fuck them. The people in this world who always get fucked are the nice people and the good guys, because they've already given them wiggle room.

Apparently, letting muslims into our countries was wrong, because now Sharia law is being pushed all over the world. Whoops, our bad. I guess multiculturalism kinda failed there. And letting women vote and own property? Here's our thanks, we should just go fuck ourselves. Take all of these allowances and legs-up for granted and then fuck is the ass when you're on your feet. I'm so sick of being politically correct and cowed by the radical groups in my country simply because I'm not one of them.
[\rant]

TL;DR
I'm sick of radical people controlling the lives of normal people. They should shut the fuck up. "Live and let live: has failed. Should probably find a harsher way of handling people when they step out of bounds.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:17 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Relevant information:

Apparently the co-founder of Polygon bullied the man who landed the Rosetta shuttle on the comet.

For (You guessed it) wearing a shirt gifted to him by his female friend that was "Misogynistic".
Writing an article where you disagree with someone is not bullying. It can be critized as an article, it may result in bullying, but you claimed the author bullied, which isn't the same as causing others to bully. Also, not sure what's the line between bullying and negative attention.

I believe some shirts are inappopriate in professional context. The shirt's creator is irrelevant. The shirt represents the organization/company to a small extent.

Image

I noticed the outrage, and think it was an overreaction. It would have been enough to inform the guy about it. The guy agrees wearing the shirt in that context was a bad decision.

Image

What do you think was wrong?

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:43 am

Korban3 wrote:and all of these women get their panties in a bunch and sand in their vaginas and start bitching.

Shut the fuck up.

If both sides of all of these issues can't shut the fuck up because they're being childish, then shut the fuck up because you're a damn women. And you there, manly-man. Shut the fuck up because you're a misogynist prick. Just find a reason to stop being fucking toxic and everyone chill out. I'm so sick of all of these fucks who think that they have the right to control others' lives and actions.
You sound angry, and that's ok, but the insults you chose happen to be quite sexist. "It's the women and its their fault for acting like women." I think that's toxic. I wish everyone would chill out too!

Is voicing an opinion the same as control?

Stupid laws exist everywhere. In Finland, the current outrage is against rising alcohol taxation and restrictions of advertising (showing any images of) alcohol. Legalese problems would get quite offtopic though.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:57 pm

Considering it caused him to cry as a result. I feel the article went faaaar to far.

Anyways.

Summary of the events relating to this: The co-founder of Polygon (The same journalism company that took points from Beyonetta 2 that was otherwise great game according to them) criticized a man to tears over a shirt his friend gave to him (Which he was wearing as a symbol of friendship.). Polygon ALSO subsequently wrote 2 articles on Beyontta 2 in a few days. Though the content of such articles is unclear.

Then there's this.

Written by a woman (Obvious bias in play) and talking about our favorite sexist. Anita.

Polygon also went to join the White Knight Train against Hatred upon the release of it's trailer, also writing a subsequent article after that but I'm not entirely sure if that's true or not.

Entirely unrelated, but Kotaku is also guilty of such actions. They interviewed the AC Unity team about female characters (For no reason at all). So I believe that could be taken in strides with what we've seen in the past as an SJW agenda.

Knock off 2 more.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:23 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Then there's this.

Written by a woman (Obvious bias in play) and talking about our favorite sexist. Anita
Yes. I have seen many opinion pieces before, and I do believe they are often biased, (that is, they contain an opinion).

Do you think an article like that, written by a man, would have been obviously unbiased, or obviously biased?

I can't find the two Bayo 2 articles Polygon published after the Shirtstorm. Is that why their content is unclear? Because they can't be read? Or did you mean some other articles published earlier? any way, I don't see anything bad, evil or out of the ordinary in these things. Websites wrote things about games.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:18 pm

Endoperez wrote:
Yes. I have seen many opinion pieces before, and I do believe they are often biased, (that is, they contain an opinion).

Do you think an article like that, written by a man, would have been obviously unbiased, or obviously biased?
I think it would be biased if only slightly. Depends on the person though.


I can't find the two Bayo 2 articles Polygon published after the Shirtstorm. Is that why their content is unclear? Because they can't be read? Or did you mean some other articles published earlier? any way, I don't see anything bad, evil or out of the ordinary in these things. Websites wrote things about games.
They were published pre-Shirtstorm. I can't find them either.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Korban3 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:32 am

I don't even give a shit anymore. People want to be toxic, horrible monsters to others, they'll only receive the same from me. I'm sick of giving kindness and respect to people and only receiving the opposite.

Anyways, the bunched panties and sandy vaginas are both expressions anyways, kind of exclusive to the military, but still.

But, as said, I'm at the end of my fucks-to-give. If people decide to return respect, kindness and decency, then fine by me. If they decide that I don't deserve the same respect and room to breath that I gave them, I don't see why I should sit there and accept it.

People have gotten soft, and others take advantage of it. Perhaps in a less literal sense, "If it's hostile, you kill it." should be my new motto. "Live and let live" doesn't work, apparently.

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