Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization.

Anything else
User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:01 pm

I'll write about art and censorship later, when I have more time. Art is censored when it goes too far over social acceptability. The exact limits vary in different cultures.
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: Alright, this happened with thousands of other games. Why is this special?
It's not unique, but it's not common. Pointing it out is the thing, really, especially with Polygon changing its policy in response. Despite Gamergate's 'best' efforts, ethics in game journalism is topical.


It wasn't intended to. I don't hold a specific side over the issue and I instead argue how it actually is.
I'm not convinced you're not taking sides, and what you keep saying isn't what it is. You are either wrong, or I and lots of other people and all sorts of sources are wrong.

You haven't given me anything that'd make me think you aren't the one who got it wrong.



Whether you're gay, straight, male or female you'll play the game very similarly. There isn't as much difference between male gamers and female gamers as people think.
What do you think people think about those differences?

People think differently. People care about different things. People play games in different ways. Different demographical groups have different trends. They are not absolute, but differences exist.

I think women are somewhat more commonly are interested in story, in cute characters, in cooperation over being the best, and are less interested in high difficulty and skill, and so on, based on the gender stereotypes. I know many women who are exceptions to this trend personally.

Are those the sorts of differences you were thinking others were thinking?

That was a fucking joke.
I honestly couldn't tell. It didn't feel that different from other statements from you I've read. :/

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:13 pm

Endoperez wrote:I'll write about art and censorship later, when I have more time. Art is censored when it goes too far over social acceptability. The exact limits vary in different cultures.
Why do we need lines and barriers exactly?

It's not unique, but it's not common. Pointing it out is the thing, really, especially with Polygon changing its policy in response. Despite Gamergate's 'best' efforts, ethics in game journalism is topical.
No, it's pretty common among AAA titles, BF4 being a recent example.


I'm not convinced you're not taking sides, and what you keep saying isn't what it is. You are either wrong, or I and lots of other people and all sorts of sources are wrong.

You haven't given me anything that'd make me think you aren't the one who got it wrong.
I'm not, I'm always aware that GG is completely spearheaded by idiots and represented by idiots with stupid methods to deal with what may or may not be an actual issue.

A lot like feminism as it is.



What do you think people think about those differences?

People think differently. People care about different things. People play games in different ways. Different demographical groups have different trends. They are not absolute, but differences exist.

I think women are somewhat more commonly are interested in story, in cute characters, in cooperation over being the best, and are less interested in high difficulty and skill, and so on, based on the gender stereotypes. I know many women who are exceptions to this trend personally.

Are those the sorts of differences you were thinking others were thinking?
You misinterpret me. I meant that if you give a girl and a guy a Call of Duty game, they'll play the game very similarly, even if CoD wasn't their first choice of game to play in the first place.

Point being, there is no inequality in anything but the gaming community, and unless you want to run into (What I've taken to calling) the Gone Home Paradox, that's never going to change.

Women aren't above trash talk, Extra Credits, Anita and the other sects of radical feminism would have you believe otherwise.
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:53 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Why do we need lines and barriers exactly?
Because the majority of people everywhere, including me, don't want to see beheadings, or tortured dogs, or abused bodies, and various other things. They are for our comfort and make us happier, like other social rules, such as prohibition of violence, theft, and on the lower end of the scale lying and cussing and libel and slander. I'm open to arguments that it's closer to lying, where there are clear situations where breaking the taboo is acceptable as an exception but not the rule.

Out of interest, what do you consider the difference between government-controlled censorship, company-controlled denial to share products or information, and fights fought against products or information lead or started by either individuals or groups of people?

Some people say only the government's action are called censorship, and are worse than the other two. I think censorship is useful as a general term, and I agree government-controlled it is the worst. Companies shouldn't have power to deny people things through a monopoly, but they don't have to support any single product. Individuals and groups have the right to protest and demand things, but those demands shouldn't always be met.

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:No, it's pretty common among AAA titles, BF4 being a recent example.
That's a year ago, but okay. I'll amend my statement to "not unique, but not the norm either". As I said, it's more that the press reacted and spoke against the practice that got it attention.
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Women aren't about trash talk, Extra Credits, Anita and the other sects of radical feminism would have you believe otherwise.
You say radical, I say pretty average. There's nothing radical about Extra Credits.

Tropes vs Games series isn't radical either, and I don't remember Anita saying or doing anything that would paint her as a radical feminist either, but you might be able to dig something up.

This is what I meant by you taking sides, and being wrong. You oppose feminism and then go on to claim ridiculous things that make me go WHAT. How can I take you seriously when you spout stuff like this? Especially when you don't explain half your statements. What is "Gone Home paradox"? That you don't like it but some people do?

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:03 pm

Endoperez wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Why do we need lines and barriers exactly?
Because the majority of people everywhere, including me, don't want to see beheadings, or tortured dogs, or abused bodies, and various other things. They are for our comfort and make us happier, like other social rules, such as prohibition of violence, theft, and on the lower end of the scale lying and cussing and libel and slander. I'm open to arguments that it's closer to lying, where there are clear situations where breaking the taboo is acceptable as an exception but not the rule.
I'd rather these things be open to create, but not forced to not exist just because someone decided to make a Grimdark world.

Out of interest, what do you consider the difference between government-controlled censorship, company-controlled denial to share products or information, and fights fought against products or information lead or started by either individuals or groups of people?
1: That's wrong, the motives are probably for public interest or government interest.
2: That coexists with the third
3: This is where the public goes "I don't like this. Be destroyed" and goes on a crusade against it.

Motives are probably the first thing that comes to mind.
Some people say only the government's action are called censorship, and are worse than the other two. I think censorship is useful as a general term, and I agree government-controlled it is the worst. Companies shouldn't have power to deny people things through a monopoly, but they don't have to support any single product. Individuals and groups have the right to protest and demand things, but those demands shouldn't always be met.
Pretty much my stance.

You say radical, I say pretty average. There's nothing radical about Extra Credits.
Yes, that was a bit jumping the gun.

Tropes vs Games series isn't radical either, and I don't remember Anita saying or doing anything that would paint her as a radical feminist either, but you might be able to dig something up.
Considering she said "You can't be sexist against men", yes I do think that she's getting there.

Considering that many radical groups are boycotting developers who don't support them.


This is what I meant by you taking sides, and being wrong. You oppose feminism and then go on to claim ridiculous things that make me go WHAT. How can I take you seriously when you spout stuff like this? Especially when you don't explain half your statements. What is "Gone Home paradox"? That you don't like it but some people do?
1: I am, again, I don't take any side. I simply oppose the radical or more vocal sect of feminism. Feminism itself is something that is certainly required in parts of the world. But it shouldn't be forced on people.

2: The Gone Home Paradox comes from an argument I had with a member of the LGBT community (Treading very lightly here, because people can be sensitive) where first he/she claimed that more representation was a good thing but also had argued earlier that the LGBT community wants equality and to be treated like normal people.

Again, no offense to the person I argued against, or the LGBT community in general. You're all probably very nice people.

The so called paradox is something that every radical social justice movement in this day and age will come across, it's where you claim to be for equality and justice, yet demand further representation of so called "Unrepresented groups", this is a paradox because it's enacting your doctrine but going against it at the same time.

In social areas, you run into it by wanting equality in gaming for example, yet wanting to be above the trash talk and harassment we all go through at some point.

Meaning, you want social superiority or privilege despite using the banner of social justice or equality.

It's really a fallacy, but isn't.

User avatar
Ragdollmaster
Posts: 2343
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:49 am
Location: Island of Lugaru

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Ragdollmaster » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:29 pm

Relevant to earlier in the thread re: 'lol ppl whinin about bullying r pussiez just ignor it lol'

http://www.livescience.com/19858-bullyi ... aging.html

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Korban3 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:59 pm

Can attest. Stress and violence as a kid has me pretty fucked up these days. My face is all worn out looking and I'm dealing with a heap of mental health problems now.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:09 am

"You can't be sexist against men"
In certain academic circles, "sexism is prejudice plus power". Not individual power, but cultural power.
"A non-government entity can do something that is like censorship, but it isn't called that because censorship is the word used when government does it."
"Men can be targets of something like sexism, but it isn't called that because sexism is the word used when the more powerful gender does it."

In other words, it's nitpicking the terminology to make a point (badly), NOT saying that men are never the targets of gender-based discrimination or prejudice.
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:The so called paradox is something that every radical social justice movement in this day and age will come across, it's where you claim to be for equality and justice, yet demand further representation of so called "Unrepresented groups", this is a paradox because it's enacting your doctrine but going against it at the same time.
You're basically saying that striving for equality is 1) a sign of a radical social justice movement and 2) creates inequality by demanding that generally accepted social norms are followed equally by everyone, even in small social circles.

1 - that's not radical.
2 - that's... well, it's a thing. I don't think it's a bad thing. I want to be above the trash talk and harassment I go through, and it has been researched and scientifically proven that the trash talk men get online is not as common, as bad or as hostile as the trash talk women get.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:21 pm

No, I'm saying that saying you're striving for equality but really not is wrong.

Since the Paradox comes from the entire situation of "We want more representation of X people" while saying earlier "EQUALITY! SOCIAL JUSTICE! PIXEL ART!", that should have been obvious. Feminists constantly run into this because they sweep male victims under the rug (Social justice mind you) and bitch and moan whenever women aren't worshiped to their liking.

As for men getting trashed talked online, since most of the gaming is ruled by predominantly males, it's probably going to be greater on that basis alone.

Regardless, no one is above criticism (Anita and whoever made Gone Home), no one is above trash talk (Polygon) and no one is above the horribleness of the internet.

Just because there are horrible things on the internet doesn't mean we need to change anything, feminists can't seem to get that through their heads.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:35 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Since the Paradox comes from the entire situation of "We want more representation of X people" while saying earlier "EQUALITY!
Let's assume you have a an old-fashioned mechanical balancing scale and two sets of weights. One set of weights is made of metal and decorated with small leds, making it Futuristic. The other set is also made from metal but has a stylish Matte finish instead.

On one of the scale's cups, there's several Matte pieces. On the other, there is a small amount of Futuristic pieces. How can you balance the Futuristic and Matte pieces without adding in any more Futuristic pieces?
Just because there are horrible things on the internet doesn't mean we need to change anything, feminists can't seem to get that through their heads.
If something is horrible, why shouldn't it be changed?

I'm not saying it NEEDS to change, but asking if it wouldn't be better to make the world a less horrible place.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:03 pm

Because that would be pretty invasive.

Anita and the people like her (Whoever thought that Cyberbully movie was a good idea) are part of this little sect of people who have realized that the internet (And gaming by proxy) is a horrible place and decided that it's their duty to fix it.

That's an over simplification.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:27 am


User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:40 am


User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:44 am


User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:44 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Oh hai Anita.
Here's what she had to say about Mirror's Edge. This isn't a new video either.
www.youtube.com/embed/ah8mhDW6Shs?start=375

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:55 am


I have no idea what Atheism+ is, but I know how GamersPlus started. It was a thing a bot-account said. A thing Gamergate had mentioned before that several times as a possible scenario.

Http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... rom-a-bot/

Post Reply