Howdy.
I've seen some old posts that compared Lugaru's gameplay to that of Bungie's Oni.
AFAIR, David used to play Oni but wasn't very satisfied with Oni's melee/AI system.
I just wanted to point out that it has its strong points and show you what I mean.
Oni Team Arena - Total Melee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1j0q63KFg
This is nothing revolutionary: a little script that "emulates multiplayer" with bots.
It shows what human players and Oni's AI (mostly unmodded) are capable of.
I tried to imagine what this would like with context-based melee à la Lugaru...
and I came to the conclusion that context-based melee simply wouldn't work.
As least it's my impression that a few combos should be available at any time.
My question to Wolfire/David is this: can/will Phoenix allow for such gameplay?
Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?
Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?
Last edited by geyser on Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Ultimatum479
- Meh. Inadequate.
- Posts: 857
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:05 pm
- Contact:
Re: Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?
Care to clarify?geyser wrote:I tried to imagine what this would like with context-based melee à la Lugaru...
and I came to the conclusion that context-based melee simply wouldn't work.
Re: Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?
I did. In Oni, there are combos and throws: throws require a specific opponent.Ultimatum479 wrote:Care to clarify?geyser wrote:I tried to imagine what this would like with context-based melee à la Lugaru...
and I came to the conclusion that context-based melee simply wouldn't work.
Crowd-clearing moves are not throws but combos: you can do them on your own.
In Lugaru, there are no combos, only "throws". This takes some freedom away, IMO.
No moves with an area effect or basic directional blows means trouble in group fights.
Which isn't to say there shouldn't be any context-sensitive melee at all. Of course not.
I'm glad you're interested in OTA, and I hope you can show us some truly outstanding melee skills.
-
Ragdollmaster
- Posts: 2343
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:49 am
- Location: Island of Lugaru
Well... there ARE area moves and combos. Combos are just hitting the enemy while on ground in 2 second intervals, or smacking them into the air, kicking them farther into the air, and then smash-kicking them when they fall down. There are going to be new moves in L2- it's been rumored there's one move called the hammer throw, where you pick up a stunned enemy by the head and whirl them around your head, then let go like a shotput ( by stunned i mean like they are right after a weak punch. The move is supposed to be a close-quarters throwing alternative to going way back and doing a leg cannon ) For now there is only one area move in L1, the sweep kick which lets you knock over any enemies in your leg sweep range. But it would be more interesting if David added all the stuff you suggested.
Heck with it... I'l take it anyway it comes 
Escuse me if this sounds a little liberal, but we all loved the first lugaru and the second should be just as good if not better if I keep it relatively the same.
I'm not saying that improvements aren't welcome though. And I'm happy they're making the sweep kick able to hit multiple people. I kinda thought that would've helped alot in Lugaru I
Escuse me if this sounds a little liberal, but we all loved the first lugaru and the second should be just as good if not better if I keep it relatively the same.
I'm not saying that improvements aren't welcome though. And I'm happy they're making the sweep kick able to hit multiple people. I kinda thought that would've helped alot in Lugaru I
@ Cmyszka: Ragdollmaster's point is that you can leg-sweep multiple chars in L1 already 
My point is that leg sweeps are OK only if you're fighting against 1 or 2 enemies at a time.
They don't work for team battles and generally situations involving half a dozen chars or more.
Any Oni player knows that it takes a very skilled player to handle 3+ enemies with a civilian.
It would be ironic if Turner & Co only fought as good as Oni's civilians, now wouldn't it?
Which is not to say civilians are worthless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nO-WHQ4XP4
The point of scripts like OTA is to test extreme situations and see what they require.
The verdict is: throws are OK but a bit unfair since the thrower is always invulnerable.
Crowd clearers, directional blows and more generally context-free moves are a lot nicer.
They can be blocked or intercepted, yet they give the player more control over the action.
Not to beat a dead horse, but context-based melee feels less immersive (to me at least).
@ Ragdollmaster: your examples are all throws except for the leg sweep, as far as I can tell.
Since one is not able to throw a punch or kick at will, even the air combos don't really count
Yes there are chained attacks, but they all require a specific opponent to lock on - like throws.
Note that I'd be totally OK if L2 reprises the combat system of L1, without any context-free moves.
My question was more about Phoenix as an engine : can a L2 tot-conv feature Oni-like combos?
(heh, it might be a little too late to change question in the topic title now)
My point is that leg sweeps are OK only if you're fighting against 1 or 2 enemies at a time.
They don't work for team battles and generally situations involving half a dozen chars or more.
Any Oni player knows that it takes a very skilled player to handle 3+ enemies with a civilian.
It would be ironic if Turner & Co only fought as good as Oni's civilians, now wouldn't it?
Which is not to say civilians are worthless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nO-WHQ4XP4
The point of scripts like OTA is to test extreme situations and see what they require.
The verdict is: throws are OK but a bit unfair since the thrower is always invulnerable.
Crowd clearers, directional blows and more generally context-free moves are a lot nicer.
They can be blocked or intercepted, yet they give the player more control over the action.
Not to beat a dead horse, but context-based melee feels less immersive (to me at least).
@ Ragdollmaster: your examples are all throws except for the leg sweep, as far as I can tell.
Since one is not able to throw a punch or kick at will, even the air combos don't really count
Yes there are chained attacks, but they all require a specific opponent to lock on - like throws.
Note that I'd be totally OK if L2 reprises the combat system of L1, without any context-free moves.
My question was more about Phoenix as an engine : can a L2 tot-conv feature Oni-like combos?
(heh, it might be a little too late to change question in the topic title now)
You can? I could never seem to get it to work... But then again I usually avoid fighting that many people at a time as much as possuble...geyser wrote:Ragdollmaster's point is that you can leg-sweep multiple chars in L1 already
OK then, ignore me. everyone on AE seems to. lol (don't ask if you don't already know)
I feel like a moron now... I hope you're happy...
No one is a moron. I'm not happy. What's AE?
I don't play L1 much (truth is, I only have the demo).
And I don't enjoy fighting multiple enemies, either
Which is the whole point of this discussion, of course.
In Oni, group battles are fun. Messy, but a lot of fun.
The confusion around the leg sweep makes a point.
If you tried and never got it to work, then does it?
I don't know for sure how exactly the leg sweep works.
It needs one char to lock on, and the hits anyone around.
Probably. I'd need to dig into L1's works a bit (modding).
I don't play L1 much (truth is, I only have the demo).
And I don't enjoy fighting multiple enemies, either
Which is the whole point of this discussion, of course.
In Oni, group battles are fun. Messy, but a lot of fun.
The confusion around the leg sweep makes a point.
If you tried and never got it to work, then does it?
I don't know for sure how exactly the leg sweep works.
It needs one char to lock on, and the hits anyone around.
Probably. I'd need to dig into L1's works a bit (modding).
-
Ragdollmaster
- Posts: 2343
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:49 am
- Location: Island of Lugaru
In Lugaru the enemies are much stronger than in most games; the weakest enemies are about as strong as Turner in terms of strength, speed and health. It is not that Turner is only as strong as a civilian in Oni; more that his enemies are harder than Oni's Muro. A central idea in Lugaru is that you have to use strategy to set up your battles, and tactics to win them. You can't just charge headlong into a group of enemies and take them all out with a devil spin kick. It is not really possible to hit several enemies with one punch or kick because the attack is only effective if you transfer most of the kinetic energy of the attack into the enemy, causing your fist or foot to slow or bounce back.
My problem with fighting systems like Oni is that everyone punches the air a lot. That is, they don't punch where the enemy used to be, and miss, they just punch at nothing because the camera is confusing or they accidentally pushed the wrong attack button, even expert players like in those videos. More realistically, a fighter's attacks are in his muscle memory. He doesn't have to think about performing them correctly. He has done them so many times that there is no chance of failing the attack or missing; the only danger is that the enemy will block or dodge. This is why I set up the controls in Lugaru so that you just have to pick what attack you want to perform, and you will automatically do it when the opponent comes in range.
There are a number of weaknesses in the implementation in Lugaru 1: mostly that there is no feedback that you have pressed the attack button if you are out of range, and that you can't control the strength of each attack. An important change I am planning for L2 is to have more degrees of freedom for the combat moves. For example, you could tap the mouse quickly to do a light punch, or hold it down to do a heavier one. You could also take use the movement keys during the start of the attack to determine the direction of impact, rather than having just one move for attacking while running, for attacking while crouching, and attacking while standing still. Holding down the mouse while out of range will also have some kind of visual feedback, though I have not decided what yet; you might be able to do context-free moves like in Oni just to intimidate or drive back your enemies, even though they would not really be effective if they connected.
PS: You can only sweep one enemy at a time, but you can get him to fall into other enemies
PPS: When I play Lugaru myself, I usually start up the challenge level with the combat students in the grid of blocks, and try and fight all of them at the same time. I am sure Silb or Usagi could make a video of what group fighting looks like in Lugaru after a lot of practice
My problem with fighting systems like Oni is that everyone punches the air a lot. That is, they don't punch where the enemy used to be, and miss, they just punch at nothing because the camera is confusing or they accidentally pushed the wrong attack button, even expert players like in those videos. More realistically, a fighter's attacks are in his muscle memory. He doesn't have to think about performing them correctly. He has done them so many times that there is no chance of failing the attack or missing; the only danger is that the enemy will block or dodge. This is why I set up the controls in Lugaru so that you just have to pick what attack you want to perform, and you will automatically do it when the opponent comes in range.
There are a number of weaknesses in the implementation in Lugaru 1: mostly that there is no feedback that you have pressed the attack button if you are out of range, and that you can't control the strength of each attack. An important change I am planning for L2 is to have more degrees of freedom for the combat moves. For example, you could tap the mouse quickly to do a light punch, or hold it down to do a heavier one. You could also take use the movement keys during the start of the attack to determine the direction of impact, rather than having just one move for attacking while running, for attacking while crouching, and attacking while standing still. Holding down the mouse while out of range will also have some kind of visual feedback, though I have not decided what yet; you might be able to do context-free moves like in Oni just to intimidate or drive back your enemies, even though they would not really be effective if they connected.
PS: You can only sweep one enemy at a time, but you can get him to fall into other enemies
PPS: When I play Lugaru myself, I usually start up the challenge level with the combat students in the grid of blocks, and try and fight all of them at the same time. I am sure Silb or Usagi could make a video of what group fighting looks like in Lugaru after a lot of practice
-
Ultimatum479
- Meh. Inadequate.
- Posts: 857
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:05 pm
- Contact:
Hi there David,
I'd like to see a video demonstration of the strategy/tactics tandem you mention. BTW, I'm surprised there are "no" L1 videos on YouTube.
I know about kinetic energy (PhD in physics in progress), but I'm not bothered about unphysical effects in action games and movies
Most of Oni's combos are actually impossible to perform, but heck, martial arts feats are also akin to circus acts, cables or no cables.
I'm not sure if there's such a thing as real-world fighting, or if all there is is stunts and video games. Do martial arts apply anywhere?
Anyway, it still feels strange to me that an average player in L1 should have absolutely precise "muscle memory" and never miss a hit.
More fundamentally, the "automatic" philosophy takes some interactivity away. It's far from a slideshow with a big red button, but still...
So that "muscle memory VS air-punching" makes a point, but what's missing is some extra room for improvisation, e.g., when crowded.
Think what you will of the devil spin kick but directional punches/kicks really add to the close quarters tactics and overall interactivity a lot.
Maybe it only works with dumb AI, though, eh? Then again, maybe I should shut up until I see a demonstration of L1 group fight ownage.
I like very much what you're saying about strength control, directional control and variety in general: the player's "degrees of freedom"...
Consistent handling of keypress AND release events would surely make for a nice addition to the interactivity. So would more attacking states.
One issue with L1 is the lack of backpedaling and strafing, which looks rather peculiar per se and rules out the directional blows as a class.
Keeping in line with the context-based approach, I think you should have not one but many ranges (3 or 4), and pick attacks accordingly.
Clearly you don't attempt the same attack when you're one foot or two feet away, or when you're in full body contact with the enemy, right?
At long range you could indeed attempt a flashy but ineffective move that reaches far forwards. Thus it would offer a decent mid-range transition.
Also, you could get some of Oni's variety back by picking at random beween several blows falling in a certain range/state/strength class.
In L1 I sometimes find it hard to figure out the causal link between my input and what's happening on the screen (that's one of L1's putoffs).
(I know it's supposed to feel like I really threw a punch, but sometimes the suspension of disbelief doesn't work: things moving on a screen
)
If combos are further randomized, the causal link may be even harder to trace, but it could create some new feeling of power... who knows?
After all, I pondered on the possibility of making the melee engine largely context-based in "Oni 2", and didn't "foresee" any major design flaws.
That was 2 years ago, before I became aware of L1. Then I played L1 and didn't like the system, even though I had dreamt up a similar one.
But that doesn't mean the concept is bad, of course. It just needs tweaking, and I'm sure Phoenix/L2 will allow for a better experience.
BTW, are you still limiting yourself to a single mouse button? I thought you were beyond that
Really, choosing between kicks and punches is a must since they have a very different reach...
Or maybe you can integrate that consideration in the smart range thing?
(prefer throws below 1 foot, punches at 1 to 2 feet, kicks at 2 to 3 feet, etc...)
Then you indeed can get away with a single button + crouch for low hits.
(in Oni there is a difference between crouching and starting to crouch)
I really wonder what control schemes Strident used (or would have used)... http://wiki.oni2.net/index.php/Oni2:Influences/Strident
Erm. Sorry for the verbal... incontinence. Must be something I ate.
I'd like to see a video demonstration of the strategy/tactics tandem you mention. BTW, I'm surprised there are "no" L1 videos on YouTube.
I know about kinetic energy (PhD in physics in progress), but I'm not bothered about unphysical effects in action games and movies
Most of Oni's combos are actually impossible to perform, but heck, martial arts feats are also akin to circus acts, cables or no cables.
I'm not sure if there's such a thing as real-world fighting, or if all there is is stunts and video games. Do martial arts apply anywhere?
Anyway, it still feels strange to me that an average player in L1 should have absolutely precise "muscle memory" and never miss a hit.
More fundamentally, the "automatic" philosophy takes some interactivity away. It's far from a slideshow with a big red button, but still...
So that "muscle memory VS air-punching" makes a point, but what's missing is some extra room for improvisation, e.g., when crowded.
Think what you will of the devil spin kick but directional punches/kicks really add to the close quarters tactics and overall interactivity a lot.
Maybe it only works with dumb AI, though, eh? Then again, maybe I should shut up until I see a demonstration of L1 group fight ownage.
I like very much what you're saying about strength control, directional control and variety in general: the player's "degrees of freedom"...
Consistent handling of keypress AND release events would surely make for a nice addition to the interactivity. So would more attacking states.
One issue with L1 is the lack of backpedaling and strafing, which looks rather peculiar per se and rules out the directional blows as a class.
Keeping in line with the context-based approach, I think you should have not one but many ranges (3 or 4), and pick attacks accordingly.
Clearly you don't attempt the same attack when you're one foot or two feet away, or when you're in full body contact with the enemy, right?
At long range you could indeed attempt a flashy but ineffective move that reaches far forwards. Thus it would offer a decent mid-range transition.
Also, you could get some of Oni's variety back by picking at random beween several blows falling in a certain range/state/strength class.
In L1 I sometimes find it hard to figure out the causal link between my input and what's happening on the screen (that's one of L1's putoffs).
(I know it's supposed to feel like I really threw a punch, but sometimes the suspension of disbelief doesn't work: things moving on a screen
)If combos are further randomized, the causal link may be even harder to trace, but it could create some new feeling of power... who knows?
After all, I pondered on the possibility of making the melee engine largely context-based in "Oni 2", and didn't "foresee" any major design flaws.
That was 2 years ago, before I became aware of L1. Then I played L1 and didn't like the system, even though I had dreamt up a similar one.
But that doesn't mean the concept is bad, of course. It just needs tweaking, and I'm sure Phoenix/L2 will allow for a better experience.
BTW, are you still limiting yourself to a single mouse button? I thought you were beyond that
Really, choosing between kicks and punches is a must since they have a very different reach...
Or maybe you can integrate that consideration in the smart range thing?
(prefer throws below 1 foot, punches at 1 to 2 feet, kicks at 2 to 3 feet, etc...)
Then you indeed can get away with a single button + crouch for low hits.
(in Oni there is a difference between crouching and starting to crouch)
I really wonder what control schemes Strident used (or would have used)... http://wiki.oni2.net/index.php/Oni2:Influences/Strident
Erm. Sorry for the verbal... incontinence. Must be something I ate.
I've never played Oni... so...
How about this
You can punch
You can kick
You can throw
You can wiggle your tail lolz, the ultimate attack!!!!
*clears throat*
Depending on what Turner is doing at the time can affect what's going on.
Example being:
Control: Flipping over an enemy's head while hitting the throw button or whatever it is.
Effect: Turner grabs the victim mid-flip. When he tounches the ground he uses his momentum to either throw the enemy in front of him, or bring him over his head and down onto his knee (by perhaps hitting the kick button)
Something like that?
Of course, I'm not an expert. Doing something like that wouldn't work, would it, physics-wise
Another example being you are running at an enemy and you push the crouch and kick at the same thime. Perhaps Turner would soccer-tackle the opponent (at least i think it's called a soccer-tackle. You can call it a slide to second base or something) causing him to fly over Turner's head onto the ground.
Hmmm...
I don't know...
I read about this game called Assasin's Creed on Wikipedia.org and according to that interacting with stuff depends on keys that do different things. Like, if you have the spacebar set to the "legs" button and you run up to a wall you will jump over it, wheras if you are swordfighting you will attempt to kick your enemy. Maybe something similar could be implemented?
I say again, I am no expert.
How about this
You can punch
You can kick
You can throw
You can wiggle your tail lolz, the ultimate attack!!!!
*clears throat*
Depending on what Turner is doing at the time can affect what's going on.
Example being:
Control: Flipping over an enemy's head while hitting the throw button or whatever it is.
Effect: Turner grabs the victim mid-flip. When he tounches the ground he uses his momentum to either throw the enemy in front of him, or bring him over his head and down onto his knee (by perhaps hitting the kick button)
Something like that?
Of course, I'm not an expert. Doing something like that wouldn't work, would it, physics-wise
Another example being you are running at an enemy and you push the crouch and kick at the same thime. Perhaps Turner would soccer-tackle the opponent (at least i think it's called a soccer-tackle. You can call it a slide to second base or something) causing him to fly over Turner's head onto the ground.
Hmmm...
I don't know...
I read about this game called Assasin's Creed on Wikipedia.org and according to that interacting with stuff depends on keys that do different things. Like, if you have the spacebar set to the "legs" button and you run up to a wall you will jump over it, wheras if you are swordfighting you will attempt to kick your enemy. Maybe something similar could be implemented?
I say again, I am no expert.
You can see many samples of Oni action on YouTube.
E.g., here: http://www.youtube.com/group/onitoo
Seen the video I linket to in the topic starter?
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1j0q63KFg
The player does the slide as soon as 0:06.
And a sorta flip throw as soon as 0:25
(the enemy bumps into the pillar though)
Backbreaking-on-the-knee is an Elite move.
You'll almost certainly see it in that other vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfFa063Uh8
Bingo. At 4:30 and beyond.
Assassin's Creed looks/sounds like it has nice melee.
I'd leave it to others to actually play it, however
E.g., here: http://www.youtube.com/group/onitoo
Seen the video I linket to in the topic starter?
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1j0q63KFg
The player does the slide as soon as 0:06.
And a sorta flip throw as soon as 0:25
(the enemy bumps into the pillar though)
Backbreaking-on-the-knee is an Elite move.
You'll almost certainly see it in that other vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfFa063Uh8
Bingo. At 4:30 and beyond.
Assassin's Creed looks/sounds like it has nice melee.
I'd leave it to others to actually play it, however
Last edited by geyser on Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I just tried searching for "Lugaru" on YouTube and found a bunch of videos. What I mean by strategy and tactics is that first of all you never start a level in a battle, so you can always choose where, when, and who to fight. For example, you might want to take down the most heavily armed enemy first, and then use his weapon to kill everyone else. Then once you are actually in a fight, you can fight normally and just beat them into submission, or you can hit them into hazards like fire, rocks, or other enemies.geyser wrote:I'd like to see a video demonstration of the strategy/tactics tandem you mention. BTW, I'm surprised there are "no" L1 videos on YouTube.
This is similar to what I am planning, though instead of randomly choosing moves, it would choose the one that is most appropriate. For example, running and then pressing 'attack' will always perform a kick, but at close range it would be a knee attack, and at longer range it could be more like a shuffling side kick.Also, you could get some of Oni's variety back by picking at random beween several blows falling in a certain range/state/strength class.
I have four years more experience since I finished Lugaru, so everything will work a lot betterAfter all, I pondered on the possibility of making the melee engine largely context-based in "Oni 2", and didn't "foresee" any major design flaws. That was 2 years ago, before I became aware of L1. Then I played L1 and didn't like the system, even though I had dreamt up a similar one. But that doesn't mean the concept is bad, of course. It just needs tweaking, and I'm sure Phoenix/L2 will allow for a better experience. BTW, are you still limiting yourself to a single mouse button? I thought you were beyond that
I am going to stick with single button attacks for various reasons, but may use the right mouse button for something else. I was thinking of using it as a 'grasp' key, to pick up weapons, grab ledges, or grab enemies. You could use shift to dodge an attack, and then grab for a reversal if you want to, or do something else.