A Seed Called Hope

[Renegade_Turner]

Consider, for a second, the seed. The seed has no control over its characteristics, what its potential for growth is, where it will grow from, how long it will live, if it will live and, indeed, grow at all. The seed simply is, through no actions of its own. If the seed wishes to live it requires things, food from the ground, water from the sky, and light from the sun. However, it has no bearing on whether or not it gets these things, besides things such as growing in the direction of the sun. It simply, for the most part, makes do with what it has. If it doesn't have sufficient amounts of all its needs, it withers away silently. If it's given the wrong set of circumstances, it will not thrive, it cannot meets its potential and it cannot be expected to grow to its full potential.

Consider, for a second, that every man, woman and child in the world represents one of these seeds. Each seed starts off life the same way, it has no control over its characteristics, if it will grow without defects, in which soil it will be planted, how long it will live (if at all). In fact, even before these seeds are planted, some can already be genetically wired to be different, to be equipped with less or indeed more than the average seed. Some start out paddling their leaking canoe with one oar. Now, every seed in the world is going to have a different set of circumstances when it is planted and begins to grow. That's inescapable. You, the seed, have no control over those circumstances. They're decided for you. For some seeds, the soil is fresh, the water is plentiful and the sun always shines. For others, the ground is barren and unloving, the water is off at the faucet, and every season is the coldest winter.

Consider, for a second, that every person in the world has as little choice about the person they become and the choices they will eventually make as they do about the circumstances they are born into and how they are raised. You're born to certain parents. You're born in a certain area. You're raised in a certain way by certain people in a certain culture. You're placed in a certain school and make certain friends and are taught certain lessons by certain people...or are you? Maybe you're not placed in school. Maybe you don't make friends. Maybe no one remembers, or perhaps even bothers, to teach you anything. Maybe you never felt cared for, loved, needed or even noticed. Maybe you've never REALLY felt what it is to have hope because you never knew there was anything coming that was worth hoping for. If you've never felt them how can you know they exist? Otherwise these feelings are just akin to a fairytale.

Consider, for a second, that the murderers, the rapists, the paedophiles, the thieves, the thugs, the scumbags, the knackers, anything you want to call them, all of these people that do these things and we feel this resentment for, imagine that all of these people, if placed in a different set of circumstances, would be a completely different person. Who do you blame? Society teaches us we have to blame someone. Someone has to take the fall. If it's an adult it's their fault because they made the choice. Who cares how they were raised or indeed how they're still being raised, taught, influenced? We're all just looping in a never-ending cycle, there'll always be the "bad" and there'll always be the "good". So is it futile even fighting against the bad in life? I know, even myself, that it's easier to put the blame on someone who does something that hurts another...because if we don't have that person to vent at, to say "That's the one, that's the guy, he did it, that's the fucking bad guy right there", then what do we do? How do we release our feelings of anger? But I don't blame people who go down the wrong path. I can't. Because no one's heart starts beating with the immediate thought of "I'm gonna grow up and I'm gonna murder fifty people at a college campus because they don't pay me enough attention and I've got a few screws loose." No one wants that for themselves. Maybe some people just think they've no other option, and would give anything for a different mind, a different body, a different life, a different heart.

Consider, for a second, that for some people, life is just fucked up. In that situation, for you there is no god and, if there is, he's fucking angry. Eventually there are no more oars, there never was anyone to rescue you, there's no dry land and you're doggy paddling your sinking canoe through the stormiest sea. The only way you can see of getting out is down beneath the current.

[Assaultman67]

Consider, for a second. A world where people we're exempt from the consequences of their actions simply by saying "I'm a victim of circumstance"

(sorry if this doesn't make sense, I totally skimmed over it because I woke up kinda late for class and now my schedule is a bit rushed. I'll probably read over this again later and edit as necessary.)

[Assaultman67]

Edit: Ok I just read over it more carefully this time.

... Who cares how they were raised or indeed how they're still being raised, taught, influenced? We're all just looping in a never-ending cycle, there'll always be the "bad" and there'll always be the "good". So is it futile even fighting against the bad in life? I know, even myself, that it's easier to put the blame on someone who does something that hurts another...because if we don't have that person to vent at, to say "That's the one, that's the guy, he did it, that's the fucking bad guy right there", then what do we do? How do we release our feelings of anger? But I don't blame people who go down the wrong path. I can't. Because no one's heart starts beating with the immediate thought of "I'm gonna grow up and I'm gonna murder fifty people at a college campus because they don't pay me enough attention and I've got a few screws loose." No one wants that for themselves. Maybe some people just think they've no other option, and would give anything for a different mind, a different body, a different life, a different heart ...

I sincerely believe that one of our goals in life is to try NOT to perpetuate the cycle no matter what cards you're dealt in life. I have had the same idea as this years ago and eventually came to the conclusion "Everyone has the potential to become the next Hitler in the right circumstances. Therefore, we should treat each other as kindly and as fairly as possible so that doesn't happen."

However, If someone does fall victim to their circumstances, it is only because their resolve was weak enough to let it happen.

I sincerely believe than anyone in any condition can come out as a good person if they can just hold on to the idea that they CAN make their lives better without resorting to doing bad things with enough determination. If that isn't true, we might as well shoot ourselves now.

I'm not sure about other people ... but occasionally in my life I get moments of extreme clarity of what I need to do accompanied with the determination to do it. Even when the odds are much against me. It's as if I have no doubt in my mind that I can accomplish some task in front of me even though I have failed at so many other tasks I have half heatedly tried to achieve before.

It's this indescribable determination that has managed to help me conquer even the most perilous of goals.

At the age of 6, I decided I wanted to be an engineer and went as far as to tell my teachers "I don't need to take social studies, I am going to become an engineer." 17 years later, I am now one semester away from graduating with a mechanical engineering degree.

I rebuilt a completely totaled car when I was 16, without any prior experience or education, by myself, with minimal tools and minimal amounts of money. I spent hundreds of hours working on it. And because of this determination, I now drive that car every day with no signs of it ever being totaled.

I worked on a mod with two other individuals for four years. Eventually completing it, and releasing it ... three times. The success rate for modding is EXTREMELY low. In general, about one out of 20 teams will actually release something.

How did i accomplish these goals? Its because i had enough determination that i trudged through them without a doubt in my mind that I can't accomplish them.

However, this requires that the person holds on tight to this idea and actively pursues it. If they lose hope, they become lost souls ... "victims of circumstance".

TL;DR: Fuck that theory! You just need to stoke your "will of fire" more. Determination is the key to everything. It's your personal "hope" at the bottom of pandora's box and everyone has it.

(haha, someone is probably gonna rip me apart for saying "will of fire" ... but it was the only relate able concept I could think of. I'm not sure why the relation simile of determination being like fire is not used more often.)

[Renegade_Turner]

The perseverence agaisnt the odds story was nice, bit too much blowing of your own trumpet but you're entitled to, but you're missing the much simpler point at the centre of the story. In fact, your story about the things you've accomplished had very little to do with what I wrote...

The thing is that, even if you're a person who people can look at and say "He's determined" or anything like that, that doesn't change the fact that who we are is something we, in a way, have no control over. From the moment you're born you're being shaped. Fast forward 10 years from when you were born, and face the person you've become with a question or a problem, there's only one thing the person you are at that time will say or do in that situation, because you were made that way.

So I know it's a difficult one to swallow because people are conditioned to say, NO, I am who I am, I made myself this way, it was all me, I had control over my "destiny". But really when someone does something bad it's not something they decided when they were younger. Who imagines themselves from the moment they're born to be a thief when they're older? You don't have control over your seed, you don't have control over who you're born to, you don't have control over where you're raised, and consequently you don't have control over the person you will be after that process. It's inescapable.

I don't understand this goal about not perpetuating the cycle. We don't seem to have any one clandestine goal that we all share. Even trying to eradicate the bad from the world is a futile goal. All you can really do is punish the bad and accept it. Then you move on. It's not easy considering we're not robots, but through logic that's the only way to deal with it.

I gave the example to Ben last night when we were in a conversation. If a man killed my mother, I would of course not be under this perfectly logical course of reasoning. My reaction would be completely different, it would be "Why, why, why did you do that, what did she do to deserve it, give her back". But I would try to keep the logic of this theory close to my heart. The man has wronged me and my family, he will be punished and sent to prison, allowing hate to breed would be futile in the circumstances. I pity the people who turn out that way. I'm not too stubborn to do so just because I'm not that way.

[Assaultman67]

...

I'm still trying to figure out what you did wrong in your life to prompt this logic of "no one is truely guilty, its just circumstances they were under"

Take twins for example. They are raised under the same roof and have the same DNA, yet their personalities can vary from each other alot.

Obviously, there was some point in time where they took different paths despite being practically the same. They don't always agree with each other, they get different interests than each other. etc. etc.

If we were complete drones due to genetics and enviroment, surely they would have the same personalities, opinions, etc. ... right?

[Ragdollmaster]

Everyone's affected by certain environmental and genetic elements, things that we have little to no control over. Somebody may be doomed from the start of their lives, destined to grow up in an area without the sufficient needs to thrive or survive because of sheer luck. Someone could, by way of chance, be predisposed to having a certain temperament because of their genes, maybe not something drastic enough to be called a disorder, but something that's nonetheless present and obvious.

That's all fine and dandy, and these things affect everything about us- how we act, what we say, what we do, how we think, and so forth. The idea that everything about us is controlled by things outside of our will is not a new one, and naturally, a little disturbing since humans like to be in control. With that said, it's undeniable that we're predisposed to act certain ways because of our genetics and because of our experiences and environments, but to suggest that we have no control over what we do- that we're like seeds that sprout without a thought into plants, doing nothing but mindlessly growing towards the sun and flipping our leaves whenever it rains- well, frankly, it's ludicrous. Humans are unique in that they have the capacity to do what they want like no other animal; our brains are formed in such a way that we have complex understandings of everything from TV serials to sports and video games to philosophical questions. Rationality and logic, of course, make "sense" and are straightforward, allowing us to use simple if-then statements to show what most people would do in a given situation (if you a saw an accident, then you would call 911; if you were thirsty, then you would go get something to drink; if you wanted to have fun, you'd go do something that you enjoy)

Now, again, there are sub-conscious and environmental factors that go into our decisions which we have no control over, but all they truly do is influence what we decide to do; they don't make our decisions for us. I could go run off and jump through my open window right at this second for no logical reason just because I want to. Not because I'm mentally ill or because my genetics are telling me to, but just because I can. The concept of "want" is really more complex than you might think at first; it could be something simple- for instance, you want what you need (food, water, shelter, et al) but there are other things that you want, too, unnecessary luxuries, like ice cream, 72" flat-screen TVs, and beer. Why do you want those things? Because you're genetically pre-disposed to liking ice cream and TV? Maybe drinking runs in the family, but is that really what affects whether you grab a beer from the fridge or is it just you saying, "fuggit, I want a beer?"

We can't ever really know, can we? Humans being humans most of us have an incessant need to figure out not just how things happen, but why; I was sitting there thinking about what R_T was just trying to convey and going crazy trying to find a logical retort, until I realized that I can't really say much in terms of logic. This is a topic of speculation, much like metaphysical topics such as God- we can see what's around us and say, "Well, could this have come about without a God? Sure, but that doesn't mean it did, but it also doesn't mean that it needed a God to happen."- we can't prove or disprove it. I feel this is one of those things. To break it down, what we're essentially discussing is the concept of free will (or lack thereof), correct? But it's an incredibly complex, even convoluted, concept. There are things that motivate us to do certain actions, genetic factors that predispose us to behaving in certain ways, environmental elements that make us react in certain ways- it's absolutely, undeniably possible that we could do all of this autonomously, that our brains are just machines with preset reactions and actions to any given situation, affected by other factors like genetics and environments. That said, you can't prove it either way. You can't definitely say that everything we do is of our own volition, but you can't definitely imply that we're just acting based on things outside of our control.

...and, as food for thought: Even if we are acting outside of our own "control", doing things based on nothing but external factors, does it even matter? We can't change that with our will. You can't ever be sure that you're doing something because you want to. There's no reason to obsess over it. Even if you're predestined to do so, then here's me coming in (not of my own free will of course) to throw in another external factor that will go into your brain's big folder of experiences: It doesn't matter. There. Better? Better.

If we were complete drones due to genetics and enviroment, surely they would have the same personalities, opinions, etc. ... right?

Not necessarily. Genetic variation means that every individual bar twins is totally unique and would be affected differently by their genes. As for environment, what we do in the environment that we grow up in is affected by our genes, so everyone except for twins is different from the get-go and will do different things even in identical environments, thus accumulating different experiences. Even twins will eventually somehow become different.

[Renegade_Turner]

...

I'm still trying to figure out what you did wrong in your life to prompt this logic of "no one is truely guilty, its just circumstances they were under"

That's a rather illogical thing to say. There's nothing I've done I feel ashamed of. It's not for my view of myself, it's for my view of other people.

Take twins for example. They are raised under the same roof and have the same DNA, yet their personalities can vary from each other alot.

That's not true at all. That would only be true if their consciousnesses were linked somehow, which they aren't. So they don't experience things the same way at all. Don't know what the straw man argument is about, either. I never said that people with similar circumstances will always turn out the same way, and I don't know why you came to that conclusion. The point is not that all people who have a hard time will react poorly to it, it's that the ones who do react badly to it do so because of the people they are. Is that not an acceptable viewpoint?

It's nice to cling on to this concept of having a choice...but the person you are dictates what your choice will be in any given situation. So there really is only one way it's going to go. People will push this fact away because it's uncomfortable and life seems meaningless if we think we have no choices.

I'll get around to responding to Ragdollmaster's post when I work up the motivation to read it all.

[Ragdollmaster]

Haha, I'll just give you the tl;dr version then: A lot of the post involves just reiterating what we're even discussing (whether we have choice/free will or not etc), and the heart of it lies at this (to partially quote)

We can't ever really know, can we? Humans being humans most of us have an incessant need to figure out not just how things happen, but why... This is a topic of speculation, much like metaphysical topics such as God- we can see what's around us and say, "Well, could this have come about without a God? Sure, but that doesn't mean it did, but it also doesn't mean that it needed a God to happen."- we can't prove or disprove it. I feel this is one of those things. To break it down, what we're essentially discussing is the concept of free will (or lack thereof), correct? But it's an incredibly complex concept. There are things that motivate us to do certain actions, genetic factors that predispose us to behaving in certain ways, environmental elements that make us react in certain ways- it's absolutely, undeniably possible that we could do all of this autonomously, that our brains are just machines with preset reactions and actions to any given situation, affected by other factors like genetics and environments. That said, you don't know for sure- you can't prove it either way... and, as food for thought: Even if we are acting outside of our own "control", doing things based on nothing but external factors, does it even matter? We can't change that with our will. You can't ever be sure that you're doing something because you want to. There's no reason to obsess over it. Even if you're predestined to do so, then here's me coming in (not of my own free will of course) to throw in another external factor that will go into your brain's big folder of experiences: It doesn't matter. There. Better? Better.

[Freshbite]

This has got to be the most in-depth discussion I've ever seen in the history of the Randomness section, and I'm keeping out of it. I don't think I've yet to read one of the posts here in the fullest.

I will though, when the time is right, and when I don't have an exam in four hours... wait, why am I even here in the first place? /selfslap

[Shippage]

I'm going to be the combo breaker and be the only person in this thread that does not write a novel as a reply, hehe.

[Renegade_Turner]

Or even say anything about the topic.

[Shippage]

Or even say anything about the topic.

That too!

[Zhukov]

I am inclined to agree with R_T, at least for the most part. I do not believe in free will.

Consider the last choice you made. It could be anything, some big life-changing decision or just what flavour of ice cream to get... whatever. If time were to be rewound back to that exact point, with those exact same circumstances, would you make the same choice? (Bear in mind that "exact same circumstances" means you have no memory of previously making that choice or its outcome.)

I think you would. As would I.

[Renegade_Turner]

How did you say all of what I was trying to explain in one small paragraph? Fuck you, Zhukov. I mean that in the friendly sort of way. But not too friendly, sexual favours sold separately.

[underthedeep]

This has got to be the most in-depth discussion I've ever seen in the history of the Randomness section, and I'm keeping out of it. I don't think I've yet to read one of the posts here in the fullest.

I will though, when the time is right, and when I don't have an exam in four hours... wait, why am I even here in the first place? /selfslap

+1
i just picked up 2 new jobs and my semester just started, i feel ya freshbite O_O