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This is a thread to discuss your philosophy, including ideas of good, evil, altruism, and so on. I noticed this was popping up in various unrelated threads. So, as a well-behaved little programmer should, I felt obligated to isolate it in a nice modular singleton class (this thread) that can be referred to whenever the subject comes up in the future.

A good first post always has some starter content... let's see. Ok, I believe that altruism is rational even from a purely self-serving perspective. Karma is a mythical force, but it is made real by society. The best strategy for the Prisoner's Dilemma is to first cooperate, and then always do whatever the other player does. In terms of every day life, this strategy translates to being helpful to everyone unless they try and take advantage of you. If you try and take advantage of everyone you meet, then odds are that they are following this strategy, and they will never help you again.

Altruism can serve self-interest in another sense as well. Since we are social creatures, evolution operated at a social level as well. Societies of altruistic individuals survived better than societies of superficially selfish individuals, so we adapted by gaining pleasure from helping others. If I help someone expecting nothing in return, then I feel good about myself, so really I am getting something in return. This amount can actually be quantified economically; more people are willing to volunteer for jobs for free than for a small wage. For example, more people would work at a soup kitchen for free than for $1/hour, because receiving a wage of any kind removes the feeling of altruism, and that is worth more to them than $1/hour.

David wrote:We adapted by gaining pleasure from helping others. If I help someone expecting nothing in return, then I feel good about myself, so really I am getting something in return. This amount can actually be quantified economically; more people are willing to volunteer for jobs for free than for a small wage. For example, more people would work at a soup kitchen for free than for $1/hour, because receiving a wage of any kind removes the feeling of altruism, and that is worth more to them than $1/hour.

in some senesce, we need that small wage to help pay our bills or we may be Joining the poor eating from soup kitchen. It is Great to help those in need, but we should keep that in check, or we may end up becoming givers who never get anything back.

There can also be those who scab off those who are givers and they never give back, or rarely ever do and they act like they owe you one.
I have been a giver and have found that.

David wrote:Karma is a mythical force.

Karma is Very Real. You may tell me that my story is a bunch of jibba-jabba, but I tell you it is true. You would have been rolling on the floor laughing until the last bit of it, here it goes:

There are a few gang of jerks at our mall, they all take on the typical homi-g attitude. I have seen them some times get in brawls and steal and gan bash individuals.

One day a group of uni-tech students decide to have lunch in the mall, they were on on there way out when that tragedy of a group came along, they were about 18-19 years of age.

the big leader of this little boy gang comes up to one of them, Trying to intimidate one of them. he was eating a custard doughnut till it was knocked out of his hand by this dick head.

They were about the same hight and size, The uni student was collared by this jerk. after a mouthful of nasty words and a telling him he was gonna do unmentionable things to his mother, the guy from uni just poked him in the eyes like a classical comedy. after recovering from the shock of that (it look kinda hard, his eyes were really blood shot) he came stomping at this guy, ready to punch him and slipped on the Cream doughnut.

his mates were really laughing at him.
He got mad and this time he got up and, he got mad.
he made a full sprint at him to head butt him, and instead of getting clobbered, he was tripped up by the same uni student, and knocked a few teeth out on the parking lot floor.

The mall security finally stepped in.
I was cleared off before I could see any more, but you got to admit, there had to be some Karma in that?

To me, the world is a big puddle of at least semi-random effects.

The beauty of it can be seen where these effects form patterns.

The patterns sometimes are just observable from a certain POV.

This is true for everything that exists: If you define comparable things by variation, symmetry in variation leads to beauty.

That doesn't mean that less variation is automatically the most beautiful, of course. It also doesn't mean that asymmetry leads to shit.

Anyway, mapping this to behavior of people, it is difficult nowadays to obtain the POV that shows the symmetry in variation.

I believe that the degree of difficulty to get the POV that shows the symmetry of variation in behavior of people decreases when more people do things we all consider good and increases when more people do bad things. It is antiproportional to our moral integrity.

The obviously beautiful behavior-map is an ideal of mine.

Altruism, to me, is giving lifetime away by doing things to indirectly give people an impulse that lets them automatically form an obviously beautiful behavior-map when they look at these spent actions of the altruist and alter their actions accordingly.

An example would be animal welfare. An altruist does that, people look at his example and the behavior-map changes.

Bad actions in big masses let people do random things to acutely avoid the bad effects. Such a behavior-map is changing rapidly over time and rarely obviously beautiful.

Good actions in big masses let people do things that make them chronically benefit from the effects. Such a behavior-map is always effect-centric, changes slowly and obviously beautiful.

The problem is that there is no set of absolutely good actions - as long as people on the whole world like the effects, the worldwide behavior-map is beautiful.

David wrote:If you try and take advantage of everyone you meet, then odds are that they are following this strategy, and they will never help you again.

The point is to take advantage of people in ways such that they don't realize you're using them. Virtually everyone I know in school is merely my tool save for a grand total of three people I find worthy of befriending, but they're completely oblivious to that fact. Therefore, they _do_ help me again, and again, and again.

David wrote:Since we are social creatures, evolution operated at a social level as well. Societies of altruistic individuals survived better than societies of superficially selfish individuals, so we adapted by gaining pleasure from helping others. If I help someone expecting nothing in return, then I feel good about myself, so really I am getting something in return...[M]ore people would work at a soup kitchen for free than for $1/hour, because receiving a wage of any kind removes the feeling of altruism, and that is worth more to them than $1/hour.

That's not an argument for altruism; that's merely an observation that altruism is itself selfish because people are helping others in order to feel the pleasure that altruism brings them. Okay. I've noticed that before. The difference is that some of us don't feel that "joy of sharing".

I would say something but David already said it (better).

Rudel, your idea sounds like something from a few centuries ago. I knew you were old and wise, but I didn't realize it reached that far.
I now picture you as an antique sage atop a mountain, living through the centuries, gazing at the patterns of the world while treading mountain crests.(also, typing posts on the Lugaru forums)

Ultimatum479 wrote:

David wrote:Since we are social creatures, evolution operated at a social level as well. Societies of altruistic individuals survived better than societies of superficially selfish individuals, so we adapted by gaining pleasure from helping others. If I help someone expecting nothing in return, then I feel good about myself, so really I am getting something in return...[M]ore people would work at a soup kitchen for free than for $1/hour, because receiving a wage of any kind removes the feeling of altruism, and that is worth more to them than $1/hour.

That's not an argument for altruism; that's merely an observation that altruism is itself selfish because people are helping others in order to feel the pleasure that altruism brings them. Okay. I've noticed that before. The difference is that some of us don't feel that "joy of sharing".

The reasoning "Altruism brings people joy, people like joy, therefore altruism is good for them" is in no unclear way a valid argument for altruism; but David did not say (nor can you deduce from what he said) that altruism necessarily stems from selfish considerations (it's the other way around).

Also, you might notice you care about other people enough to try to convince them and give a certain idea of yourself to newly met foreigners. This is not that far from sharing. You are not a cold sociopath mastermind. You still care about the community.

It _isn't_ a valid argument for altruism because, as I said, that feeling isn't universal. It's a perfectly acceptable reason for those people who do feel that pleasure, and I'm not denying that. However, that can indeed be interpreted as ultimately selfish, because they'd arguably be doing what they do not for the benefit of others but for their own joy.

...Err, who says I'm explaining this to you to help you?

I have decided to post some conversations I had with some people after I asked what their philosophies where and the like...This is what I came up with...I'll post my philosophies later.

[shelmaliar] 11:04 pm: unlesss you go for that whole "the moment you're born you start dieing" thing...
[zeero] 11:05 pm: were all dying slowly... on the inside
[shelmaliar] 11:05 pm: zeero... only if you don't allow yourself to grow..
[Grayswandir] 11:05 pm: or you ingested some acid

[Grayswandir] 11:02 pm: I have decided
[Grayswandir] 11:02 pm: the world is a jam donut that has been hit by a car several times
[shelmaliar] 11:02 pm: there was a choice?
[zeero] 11:02 pm: that we shall go cookie hunting?
[Grayswandir] 11:03 pm: sex bastard?
[shelmaliar] 11:03 pm: gray... but that simply isn't true...
[shelmaliar] 11:03 pm: for once thing... the world is much
bigger then a jam donut...
[Grayswandir] 11:03 pm: where do you think
earthquakes come from?
[zeero] 11:03 pm: yeah it was actually sax blaster
[shelmaliar] 11:03 pm: and it's not splattered all over the
street

[shelmaliar] 11:18 pm: food glorious food?
[Grayswandir] 11:18 pm: hoorayz
zeero holds up a cat?
Grayswandir eats the cat
[zeero] 11:19 pm: poor cat
[shelmaliar] 11:19 pm: well.. it is smaller then gray...
[shelmaliar] 11:19 pm: you had to expect it
[zeero] 11:19 pm: ...yeah
[shelmaliar] 11:19 pm: and cats do taste good...
[shelmaliar] 11:20 pm: though... don't tell cara i said
that..
[shelmaliar] 11:20 pm: and that information is useful
because?


So onto my philosophies that I have hence decided upon:

The world is a giant jelly donut that has been hit by a car.

The world could also revolve around a drunk guy, a moron, and a pervert.

People are stupid. Every person is stupid.

I would run over jaywalkers if I wouldn't get arrested and charged with manslaughter.

If it is smaller than me and tastes good, I can eat it.

Being indiscriminately prejudice is more amusing than being prejudice.

Animal welfare is just an excuse to castrate or de-sex an animal so you can laugh at it because it can't make babies anymore. Or something...
Okay, so it isn't...but you know someone out there just loves cutting organs out of cats and dogs so they can laugh at them.

I have also come up with the philosophy that I can not come up with good philosophies no matter how serious I'm trying to be...but I try to follow them anyway.

um.....for me, I don't really like to examine the concept about life in fine details because I feel like if I am too caught up with the details, I often neglect the big picture about life. Also, in my opinion, a person, who thinks about altruism and then act altruistically as a result, is not really altruistic. I don't wish to offend anyone, but I think a person should just act the way that is most comfortable for him/her at the moment. I have a quote from an ancient Chinese Taoism philosopher, Lao Tse, that I would like to share with everyone. It goes like" The snow goose need not bathe to make itself white. Neither need you do anything but be yourself" So yeah, I guess my philosophy is that we should not regret about the past or worry about future, just focus on the present moment and enjoy it because if you try to analyze too much about each action, you might overwork your brain cells.

um....Did whatever I said fit the topic?? I hope it did!

Grayswandir wrote:People are stupid. Every person is stupid.
...
If it is smaller than me and tastes good, I can eat it.

Agreed, but only on those two counts.

Ultimatum479 wrote:

Grayswandir wrote:People are stupid. Every person is stupid.
...
If it is smaller than me and tastes good, I can eat it.

Agreed, but only on those two counts.

According to my philosophy, I can eat you.

Ultimatum wrote:The point is to take advantage of people in ways such that they don't realize you're using them. Virtually everyone I know in school is merely my tool save for a grand total of three people I find worthy of befriending, but they're completely oblivious to that fact. Therefore, they _do_ help me again, and again, and again.

The whole "I am king and they are all my pawns" attitude isn't as becoming of you as you think.

"Worthy of befriending", as if you're so great.

I think you'll find that you're not as great and perfect as you think (no you didn't say it but you implied it in my opinion). You don't seem like a very nice person as it is, so it's pretty sickening to see you talking about peoples' "worth". As if they had nothing of value to offer then you would just shun them.

I'm willing to bet that you're not using as many people as you claim.

P.S. I hate you.
Not because I'm bitter about anything you've said to me.
Not because I have a personal vendetta against you.
Just you seem like a really horrible person.

P.P.S. Feel free to give into your elitist attitude again if you want and start telling me why you're only using me for your own ends...because...that's what you do to everyone other than those that are "worthy", right?

Ultimatum479 wrote:The point is to take advantage of people in ways such that they don't realize you're using them.

Like that one guy in the back of the class who rapes you with his eyes whenever you walk in? You don't notice him because he's in the back of the class and he's a tool. But one day, he'll get up the courage to lock you in a bathroom stall and enjoy himself.

Virtually everyone I know in school is merely my tool save for a grand total of three people I find worthy of befriending, but they're completely oblivious to that fact. Therefore, they _do_ help me again, and again, and again.

You're helping the guy in the back of the class build up his courage whenever you get near him.

Perhaps you could say these comments were uncalled for...but I was on a roll.

I like your metaphors Grey, and, I must say, You triggered something I believe.

The point is to take advantage of people in ways such that they don't realize you're using them. Virtually everyone I know in school is merely my tool save for a grand total of three people I find worthy of befriending, but they're completely oblivious to that fact. Therefore, they _do_ help me again, and again, and again

.

Assume everything is Energy, Emotions, money, life, Everything. Why Do people like to Strike Fear into people? Why do people like to manipulate people and Control them? Because people want to TAKE your energy and have it for themselves!

This Energy Can be anything. Your freedom, your money, anything and everything.

Some people are too willing to let themselves be compromised and give there energy away to others. Others are beaten down and raped of it.
This term I used rape, can be Physically, Mentally, or even psychologically and, the church even at this hour do it spiritually.

these attempts at rape can be not just Rape as in to have sex with someone without there consent, but it can also be Getting a Hiding by the school bully.

I have been Victim to possibly this rape mentally and spiritually, You guys will have and may be in the distant potential.
Do not let yourself be compromised.

Grayswandir wrote:According to my philosophy, I can eat you.

You don't know me, so what makes you think I'm smaller than you? Granted, I probably am, but that's an invalid assumption. Either way, you have to earn the right to eat me, and I never walk around unarmed, so you're unlikely to survive any attempt to knock me unconscious and eat me. Thus, your philosophy works fine for me.

Renegade_Turner wrote:You don't seem like a very nice person as it is, so it's pretty sickening to see you talking about peoples' "worth". As if they had nothing of value to offer then you would just shun them.

Exactly...But that's pretty rare. Almost everyone can serve some purpose for me, whether or not they know it. Even just having a reliable source of borrowed school materials every morning is a valid reason for me to use someone rather than shun them.

Renegade_Turner wrote:I'm willing to bet that you're not using as many people as you claim.

Meh. Bet all you want.

Renegade_Turner wrote:P.S. I hate you...you seem like a really horrible person.

Don't worry. The feeling's almost mutual, although it's more contempt than hatred on my end.

Grayswandir wrote:Like that one guy in the back of the class who rapes you with his eyes whenever you walk in? You don't notice him because he's in the back of the class and he's a tool. But one day, he'll get up the courage to lock you in a bathroom stall and enjoy himself...You're helping the guy in the back of the class build up his courage whenever you get near him.

....I see no point in your completely random hypothetical situation there. Are you trying to imply that, were I to befriend everyone, this supposed rapist included, that would be unlikely to happen? But that's the part you're not getting: from the point of view of my tools, they ARE my friends. They all think I enjoy being around them and speaking with them, etc, etc. Thus, I get the benefits of friendship (I'm unlikely to be attacked by them, and they'll help me whenever they can) while I don't have to deal with the annoying responsibilities (going to their houses or going to the movies with them every so often, helping them in return) so it's a win-win situation for me. Thus, your "argument" has no validity.

Colicedus wrote:Assume everything is Energy, Emotions, money, life, Everything. Why Do people like to Strike Fear into people? Why do people like to manipulate people and Control them? Because people want to TAKE your energy and have it for themselves!

Yeah, some people are immoral. They choose to go against standard moral codes, and they gain pleasure from that very action much like altruistic people recieve pleasure from giving. I'm not immoral; I'm amoral. It's much different. I don't enjoy abusing people to get my way, nor do I abhor it. It's just what I do in order to achieve my goals, and that is the part I enjoy.

Haha, Ulti, grow up, you'll see how unworthy you were posting such nonsense on the internet.

I never walk around unarmed

..get a life, seriously.