Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

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AmorphousGamer
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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by AmorphousGamer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:44 pm

Endoperez wrote: Heh, seems like my previous post hit the mark here.

I'd say APsychonaut is talking about concepts using terminology that isn't clear to you, using a tone of voice that makes you think you're being threatened. The barbs aren't directed at you, specifically.
Well, it's not really that. It's just that that particular paragraph was rather rambly and . . . well, poorly written. Most of the time I can understand someone even when using completely unfamiliar terminology.
Endoperez wrote:That actually is a sign of a system of patriarchy. It doesn't mean conscious obstruction, it's a social construct or a social situation where men tend to get into more powerful positions for various reasons.

Well, of course it's a sign. But, then, men are discriminated against pretty much as often as women, just in completely separate areas. Would that then mean that there is both a patriarchy and a matriarchy in place at the same time?
Endoperez wrote:It doesn't mean that stereotypes should be replaced, BUT, when you see a game with a damsel in distress character (because there are so many of those), ask for a female protagonist (because there are so few of those).
It doesn't really work like that.
"The current stereotypes should still exist, but when you see one of them you should whine about it."

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Endoperez
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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:15 am

AmorphousGamer wrote: Well, of course it's a sign. But, then, men are discriminated against pretty much as often as women, just in completely separate areas. Would that then mean that there is both a patriarchy and a matriarchy in place at the same time?
You weren't aware of the examples of inequality given before, so I don't trust your judgement. You don't know what women's situation is but claim 'pretty much as often' -based on what? We'll need to establish that first.

What are men denied? If it's emotions and roles considered feminine, it could be a symptom of patriarchy. For example, if a stay at home man is looked down on, why is that?

If the answer is related to money, wealth or work or value, what reason is there for a stay at home mom to be more accepted if it isn't inequality?


Re: stereotypes and complaining: true enough, there might be better ways to strive for the goal

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:07 am

I DO apologize for the rambly mess, I should really stop debating at insane hours.

The point I was aiming for there was even though men are portrayed as a stereotype, said stereotype is almost always in a positive light, encompassing what are stereotypically 'masculine' traits. Women, on the other hand, are almost always typecast as the care-y, sympathetic type, or damsels in distress. (And when they're extras it's typically as a sexualized individual, or the aforementioned typecasts.)

But I disagree on having more stereotypes be acceptable, though it might be an okay interim step. Ideally, someone should look at a person and go 'oh, there's a person!', not 'oh, there's a greaser!' or whatever other labels they tend to favour. As far as I can tell, though, Endo's talking about simply starting by molding current stereotypes into less harmful ones.

...and he pretty much fired my next shot for me <3

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by AmorphousGamer » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:28 am

Oh don't even start with saying women are sexualized.
I'm still looking at you, big buff man.
So basically you're complaining about women being portrayed as feminine, while men are portrayed as masculine? And that somehow masculine is better? I don't quite understand your logic there.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:42 am

I'm complaining that traits are being pigeonholed for either gender.
And- there's a difference between a sexually attractive individual, and being sexualized.
You will see infinitely more women being summarily dismissed from a character's bedroom than the opposite.

Also; Speaking subjectively, I really don't think a lot of the men on screen are all that attractive.

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Endoperez
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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:14 am

AmorphousGamer wrote:Oh don't even start with saying women are sexualized.
I'm still looking at you, big buff man.
So basically you're complaining about women being portrayed as feminine, while men are portrayed as masculine? And that somehow masculine is better? I don't quite understand your logic there.
Basically, muscular man is also a powerful man, a strong man.
A beautiful woman is just beautiful.

Even if both stereotypes are equally strong, masculinity is more positive than femininity. The feminist logic is based on the assumption that masculine is generally considered to be linked to the political leadership, moral authority, and control of property (see patriarchy).

And it might be that as far as stereotypes go, beauty of women is more prevalent than muscularity of men.

The stereotypical politician is dressed in a black suit, not a dress. It's a masculine suit, based on old military uniforms, and the stereotypical politician is male.

Moral authority... Religious leaders are male, but let's ignore that because that's a whole another can of worms. Let's look at, hmm, are teachers a moral authority? I guess so. There are several stereotypes of a teacher. The female stereotypes I can think of are "young and sexy" and "old and stern". Is the stereotype of a male teacher "young and buff" and "old and stern", then?

Control of property... bankers. See politician. Or check this. First, are there more men, or more women? Second, are the women beautiful more often than the men are buff and muscular?

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Korban3 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:31 am

Minor Update
Volunteered to do some work on a pone game and apparently one of the other programmers getting involved is a female.

This thread is TL;DR for 1am

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:08 am

Would the "pone" be a pony game or a phone game? :lol:

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by adwuga » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:09 am

Maybe both?

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Endoperez
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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:29 am

adwuga wrote:Maybe both?
Or... a phony pony phone game.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:36 am

Image
phony pony phone?
[+] bonus pic
Image
Image

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Korban3 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:06 am

Image

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Madd the Sane » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:33 pm

The, uh, original article is written by a veteran woman programmer and mother. She does say that the biggest people who are pushing for women to be programmers are feminists that dismiss her as a woman because she dresses in jeans and doesn't wear make-up.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:12 am

Madd the Sane wrote:The, uh, original article is written by a veteran woman programmer and mother. She does say that the biggest people who are pushing for women to be programmers are feminists that dismiss her as a woman because she dresses in jeans and doesn't wear make-up.
They dismiss something about her, yes, but I don't think they try to dismiss her as a woman. Perhaps it's about her assumed need to not stand out from her male peers, or something. Yeah, it's pretty stupid. I don't know what point you're trying to make exactly.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Madd the Sane » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:58 pm

My comment was mostly because it seems that APsychonaut's comment seemed to me to be a knee-jerk reaction to the title of either the article's title or the title of this thread.

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