Pewdiepie: Community Castles Over Comment Hassles

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Name one.

I mean, putting aside the fact that paying rent is what the day job is for, this is a ridiculous ideal. Can you name any indie who is losing money in game dev but continues to do it for gaming's sake?

Most indie devs. It's the reason a lot of games (Which are never intended for the vast majority of people. Hence GSB and Hotline Miami existing).

Team Meat is a good example, they didn't develop Super Meat Boy for people, even though it was made to be played by people.

FTL's developers, Subset Games, also continue to make games, for the sake of making games.

Noir Syndrome's developer is also doing it for fun, and using the money to keep a roof over his head to make more games.

If we agree, why do you claim develops misjudge angry rants with good ideas and will stop having characters?

That was an over-exaggeration, but the point still stands. Indie devs can easily end up extremely scared (New ones especially) of getting harassed half to death because the characters did not fit the parameters of a group of people.

[Endoperez]

Can you name any indie who is losing money in game dev but continues to do it for gaming's sake?

Most indie devs.

Are you for real?

Do you seriously think that most indie developers are rich kids using their inheritance to finance their expensive hobby, creating games? How do you think we eat?

It's our day job.

It's how we GET money.

We do not pay money to work. We want to get paid.

[Endoperez]

Slight correction to the above:

Many indie devs do lose money on game development. It is our nightmare. Bankruptcy, broken dreams, just as horrible as it'd be for anyone else who ends up homeless, penniless. It happens. It happens because we fail to make money, not because we choose not to make money.

[Endoperez]

I mean seriously.

For once someone on these forums has left me speechless.

SuperMeatBoy is a niche game. That means it's not for everyone. That doesn't mean the developers don't want to make money out of it. They do not want to get limitless amount of money out of it. They want to get at least a living. They want to be able to keep making games.

It's still a niche game, but it's made for the people who like that niche - what you lose in potential market you gain in marketing, because you can reach out for the exact people who want that exact experience, and then they buy your product.

FTL's developers continue making games because FTL was successful and they can afford making games.

Are any of the people you mentioned LOSING MONEY on making games? I mean, I don't know Noir Syndrome, but they seem to be successful games, games that are selling and making money.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

SuperMeatBoy is a niche game. That means it's not for everyone. That doesn't mean the developers don't want to make money out of it. They do not want to get limitless amount of money out of it. They want to get at least a living. They want to be able to keep making games.

It's still a niche game, but it's made for the people who like that niche - what you lose in potential market you gain in marketing, because you can reach out for the exact people who want that exact experience, and then they buy your product.

FTL's developers continue making games because FTL was successful and they can afford making games.

You pretty much just summarized what I'm trying to say here.

They don't want the game to print money (Well of course they do, but that's not their intention), but at least they want it to fund their next game, and so on, and so forth.

Get it now?

[Endoperez]

You pretty much just summarized what I'm trying to say here.

FOOD. ELECTRICITY. INTERNET. HOME.

It's impossible to make a game without money...

Day Job? There are certainly other ways to earn money as a game developer without developing games (Getting money from other games you already released).

In this thread, you literally said that game developers should get a day job so they can afford to live.

Then you said that "most indie devs" make games with the intention of losing money.

I do not agree with either of those statements, so I can't see how we agree.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

You pretty much just summarized what I'm trying to say here.

FOOD. ELECTRICITY. INTERNET. HOME.

It's impossible to make a game without money...

Day Job? There are certainly other ways to earn money as a game developer without developing games (Getting money from other games you already released).

In this thread, you literally said that game developers should get a day job so they can afford to live.

Then you said that "most indie devs" make games with the intention of losing money.

I do not agree with either of those statements, so I can't see how we agree.

You are one sensitive motherfucker.

You can always get a day job if money is big issue, Gunpoint was made by some dude who couldn't code in anything but Gamemaker Studio and who had a day job. He put it out on Steam for no reason other than for it to be played.

It made enough to turn him into a full time dev. You have no reason to whine about idiotic bullshit, most indie devs I've seen so far aren't trying to make millions. They are trying to make a game.

It's why titles like FTL, GSB, Hotline Miami, Super Meat Boy and others exist. The devs said "FUCK IT. I'M GOING TO MAKE A GAME, AND RELEASE IT".

Then it makes millions and they decide to do it again.

And again.

And so on.

And so forth.

[Endoperez]

There's making games...
And making them professionally.

I've made a free game with 10+k downloads, but I don't have the know-how to design a game that makes money. Or to make it known... And I'm good at what I do. It's just not enough on its own.

I feel like the cook who was just told that everyone can make food. Or the sailor who was told that oars are easy to use. You don't seem to appreciate how much work goes into so many phases of development...

FTL took 2 years without day jobs getting in the way. Super Meat Boy was 18 months, record-breakingly fast for its scale, while the devs were bros and pros.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6 ... hp?print=1
What went wrong? Personal expenses. Poverty.

Http://t.joystiq.com/all/2010-10-26-if- ... eloping-it

"I can't even count the amount of times I had breakdowns and my wife had to convince me that I need to finish the game and I'll be okay."



It's fun, yes... But not all the time.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

There's making games...
And making them professionally.

I've made a free game with 10+k downloads, but I don't have the know-how to design a game that makes money. Or to make it known... And I'm good at what I do. It's just not enough on its own.

I feel like the cook who was just told that everyone can make food. Or the sailor who was told that oars are easy to use. You don't seem to appreciate how much work goes into so many phases of development...

FTL took 2 years without day jobs getting in the way. Super Meat Boy was 18 months, record-breakingly fast for its scale, while the devs were bros and pros.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6 ... hp?print=1
What went wrong? Personal expenses. Poverty.

Http://t.joystiq.com/all/2010-10-26-if- ... eloping-it

"I can't even count the amount of times I had breakdowns and my wife had to convince me that I need to finish the game and I'll be okay."



It's fun, yes... But not all the time.

Yay, Indie devs can have financial troubles and don't realize that to develop your first game full time you're going to be without cash for a while. Hooray for them.

My point (Like Pewdiepie's ever growing community castle) still stands.

[Endoperez]

Yay, Indie devs can have financial troubles and don't realize that to develop your first game full time you're going to be without cash for a while. Hooray for them.

My point (Like Pewdiepie's ever growing community castle) still stands.

First game? These are professionals with years of game dev experience. I like Gish more than Super Meat Boy. I can still remember the announcer whispering "seeeecreeeet".


Isn't your point just 'devs need to get a second job so they can do their job, but they don't want more customers from Pewdiepie because customers have opinions which they can't ignore'?

[Phoenixwarrior141]

First game? These are professionals with years of game dev experience. I like Gish more than Super Meat Boy. I can still remember the announcer whispering "seeeecreeeet".

First independently released game after leaving whatever company the came from. They can't be professional if they have these breakdowns and financial problems EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

Isn't your point just 'devs need to get a second job so they can do their job, but they don't want more customers from Pewdiepie because customers have opinions which they can't ignore'?

My point is:

"Devs need to stick to what they want to do in their game, and not give way to idiots and puritanical idiots."

No, they don't need to avoid all opinions, but they need to decide which will be better for the game, not what will be better for the sales (Though one may result in another).

Your point is: "Indie devs need to focus on makin all da moneyz."

[Endoperez]

First independently released game after leaving whatever company the came from. They can't be professional if they have these breakdowns and financial problems EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

Are y ou familiar with the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?

They are professional developers who have lots of experience creating games, and they still have financial problems. Because this is a hit-driven business, and unless your game was a hit, it's hard to make money out of it even if it's good.

My point is:

"Devs need to stick to what they want to do in their game, and not give way to idiots and puritanical idiots."

No, they don't need to avoid all opinions, but they need to decide which will be better for the game, not what will be better for the sales (Though one may result in another).

Your point is: "Indie devs need to focus on makin all da moneyz."

Not "all da moneyz", but yes, making enough money is important. I believe they need to consider if their project will make money. Otherwise, even if they finish a good game, they can't continue making good games. That doesn't stop them from accurately judging other people's ideas and suggestions, which is what you're saying. And what I've been saying since the first page:

[+] Ideas

Ideas are dime a thousand. I have had more game ideas in my mind than I'll ever have the time to make. So have all of my friends. Even those who aren't game developers.

If a game developer can finish a game, he has learned to judge the worth of ideas. They are probably better at it than you. They might judge them by things you find inconsequential, such as if the changes will help the game sell more, but it's their judgement and it's also their livelihood, so tough luck.

Again, don't worry about it - the game developers already get more suggestion than they can ever implement just from within the development team. Creating a game is like sculpting - you start with a huge piece of hard stuff without proper form, and then you slowly start removing things until only the final sculpture remains. Every step closer to the finished product meant cutting something, removing something, taking something off. Sometimes with a hammer, or a chainsaw.
Forum posts aren't fans having a go with a hammer. It's fans posting photos of childish scribbles from their (brain) child and telling the sculptor to do something like that, because they love it. If the sculptor uses that idea at all, it's because he likes it.

[Endoperez]

For what it's worth, Larian Studios' lead thinks it's very important to listen what the community has to say, judge the merit of the things being said very carefully through a fine sieve, and incorporate the good ideas.

http://www.lar.net/2014/09/12/thoughts- ... omes-next/
"Listen to your community, but be aggressive in your triage and remember that game development requires enlightened despotism, not democracy. Communities are diverse and as such you’ll get conflicting opinions. You need a strong core vision to guide you through their feedback, and you need to stick to that vision, no matter how vocal they become."

[Korban3]

On the topic of day jobs and making money, my day job is stressful and low-paying enough that, on top of the rest of my personal problems, I wake up every day so miserable that I'd rather drop dead than even consider the possibility of living for another twenty years, let alone programming.

My weeks are spent getting kicked in the nuts every day and then having life shit on my head while I'm down. I've sunk so low that I can't even drag myself far enough from rock bottom to work on my projects.

So a day job to fund game dev isn't all that great if the day job is killing you, or exhausting you at best.

As for the community input, I think it's very important. If my player's are saying that something is stupid or fucked up consistently, they're probably right. Frivolous suggestions like 'og needs bows pls' are pretty promptly ignored because they're already decided against or because the dev knows better.

EDIT: Also, it comes to mind to ask, how much can you say you understand any of the game dev process if you haven't walked a mile down that path? I know Endo has, he's put out way more than I have. I've been down the street, at least, limited mostly by personal problems and failings.

[Endoperez]

A game designer friend just forwarded this to me:

http://notch.net/2014/09/im-leaving-mojang/

Notch of MineCraft fame is leaving Mojang after selling the company to Microsoft. Why?

"I don’t see myself as a real game developer. I make games because it’s fun, and because I love games and I love to program, but I don’t make games with the intention of them becoming huge hits, and I don’t try to change the world."

His plans are to "go back to doing Ludum Dares and small web experiments. If I ever accidentally make something that seems to gain traction, I’ll probably abandon it immediately."


This is rather close to what I wrote before:

If I'm making a game and I'm not doing it to make money, I'm not a professional game developer. I'm a hobbyist. I'm an amateur, would-be, could-have-been, a student. I might be an indie.

For this whole discussion I have been talking about professional game developers. The guys for whom making games is their livelihood, who take this seriously, who sell games they make.

For Notch, this has been a hobby project, amateur project that got out of hand. He got rich, obviously, but he didn't making games as a professional thing. It's not that he isn't good enough, but he doesn't want to do it.

And he's a very good example of what you can get out of a project like that: a new idea, possibly a new genre. Where do the professional game developers step in? When the originator needs to hire someone to continue doing it professionally.