Wolfire Games Forums

don't do it

GaGrin wrote:rudel_ic wins the "most sense in this thread" award.

On topic: I've yet to play an MMO thats held my attention for long (EVE online lasted a little over a month - but I couldn't commit to corp I joined so the game essentially became unplayable), but mainly because to really get anything out of them you need to be playing them socially. I personally can only be bothered to play cooperatively with people I know IRL and waiting around to get a decent group together simpley bores me.

That's not the games fault. It just doesn't appease my play-style, which is very much - I play this as and when I want. MMOs, to get the most out of them, are essentially part-time jobs.

And the fact that most of them play like really slow versions of Diablo II doesn't help either

i see what you'r saying...i'm waiting for an mmo that is actually action-packed...hasn't happened yet but i tend to like the older MMOs (Realm Online, Ultima Online, Meridian 59, etc) more than i like the newer ones simply b/c they have something different...Meridian 59 was essentially the medieval hexen/doom online
lol

UO is actually a pretty good game.
You should check out UO:KR if you're really into UO. I think it looks pretty good, a lot of people disagree, I am of course right and you believe me, end of story.

I think the main problem you'd run into with a persistent universe in an MMO (besides having to keep coming up with new material for the game itself) is that new players would either get screwed over if a major event happened or have no idea what was going on. Lets take the Escape Velocity series (which isn't an MMO buts suits my purposes) for example. There are missions that will affect the universe as a whole by destroying governements, switching the power balance of the various factions, or even taking planets. What if an opposing faction takes over a planet that normally new players start out on (outside Earth for example). They'd start up and then immediately be destroyed by the opposing forces.
Or a mission that affects the appearance of the various factions IN the universe itself. If any of those missions occur, then the new players are limited in what alliances they can make or even what missions they can accept right from the start.

There are design choices you can make to get around those little snafus. I think it's just that no developer wants to make the effort to make a game with a truly persistent universe.

wormguy wrote:There are design choices you can make to get around those little snafus. I think it's just that no developer wants to make the effort to make a game with a truly persistent universe.

True, there are, I was thinking about a few fixes for the problems I mentioned after I posted it.
On another note:
If you think about it, why would developers make a game with a truely persistent universe? Is it worth the cost of constantly paying programers, artists, and designers when most players are happy enough to pay a monthly cost to play in an MMO that doesn't have constantly changing variables?

spinning meatcube mmo silently approaching and you know it

Grayswandir wrote:

wormguy wrote:There are design choices you can make to get around those little snafus. I think it's just that no developer wants to make the effort to make a game with a truly persistent universe.

True, there are, I was thinking about a few fixes for the problems I mentioned after I posted it.
On another note:
If you think about it, why would developers make a game with a truely persistent universe? Is it worth the cost of constantly paying programers, artists, and designers when most players are happy enough to pay a monthly cost to play in an MMO that doesn't have constantly changing variables?

Well, theoretically if you programmed a game that was persistent and procedural, you wouldn't need to pay those people constantly...the universe would keep itself running.

See: Infinity Online (a game that I am quite excited for, especially since it will be free)

Seriously though, persistent universes has been done before. It doesn't really do anything good by itself.

Age Of Conan will be kind of persistent, with city building and other neat stuff.

Same for Warhammer Online.

So there's some crazy clicking approaching fast. With QuickTimeEvents to top it off. Spinning meatcubes in patch 2.4778b6. More news as it develops.

Well, theoretically if you programmed a game that was persistent and procedural, you wouldn't need to pay those people constantly...the universe would keep itself running.

See: Infinity Online (a game that I am quite excited for, especially since it will be free)

Procedures pushing geometry to the servers. I can already see how that will turn out.

"Oh look, it's a penis thunderstorm! I love wednesdays on Third Life!"

Of course, a properly made player-controlled persistent MMO would probably be able to sustain itself somewhat even if the developers forget about it - the players would be able to make their own challenges and even new cities.

As for Grayswandir's surprisingly coherent and sensible post, there are ways to make sure new players have a good grasp of the game before they get thrown out into the world. In your example, the first few planets and mission-providing factions would be perpetually neutral, as would new players up until they choose to join a 'side'. If the starting areas were attacked, immense opposition would make it next to impossible to take them over, and if by some impossible means they were taken, the devs - or even the players themselves - could relocate the starting areas.

Hi! In the first 3 hours of this MMO, you'll hunt boars and scavengers for no apparent reason. It is not exciting at all.
After that, we'll let you grind some other wildlife in and outside of dungeons for many more hours.
The game should get exciting after about 20 days of mad grinding.
The only thing that'll keep you going is leveling, item hunt and the grafix! LOOK AT THOSE MEATCUBES DUDE LOL
Once you've built up your character, we'll let you team up with other dudes to kick some other faction's ass. You'll probably get bored very quickly.
All of this is of course subscription-based.
Note that our game mostly consists of text and stats, it's basically 3D Excel.
The most fun you can get out of the game is trading shit and talking smack through an antiquated chat system.
If you somehow can squeeze roleplaying in there, go ahead, but be warned, if you're too convincing, we may ban your account.
Don't forget to update your client regularly so that your items and stats become meaningless again and again! That's what we call improvement!

Have fun!

That is what's wrong with MMOs
Persistence and computer generated content don't change this one bit. The genre HAS to be reinvented in order to get somewhere. Hint: IT'S NOT ABOUT THE GRAFIX

But if the world was persistent and player-controlled, along with the other ideas that Blorx mentioned in the original post, then it wouldn't be 20 days of mad grinding and boredom and antiquated chat systems with absolutely no role-playing. And you probably wouldn't need to continually update your client.

The biggest problem is that if a company made a game like Blorx is describing, it would be subscription-based.

Basically, a good MMO - and please bear in mind that an MMO does not necessarily mean an RPG; Counter-Strike is an MMO, for example - would be a game that anyone can pick up and play, but that has hidden depths of gameplay that would keep people coming back for more. However, even more important than this is player interaction - in fact, player interaction should be so good that the game doesn't even need NPCs, because the players can do absolutely everything, including giving tasks and rewards. Because the players are giving out the tasks and rewards, almost every single menial job you do is contributing towards the betterment of your 'side', or the game as a whole. And of course, you would notice gradual increases in skillsets as you continually do things; for example running everywhere would increase your speed and stamina; fighting a lot would increase your skills as a fighter; heavy lifting would make your character stronger, and the more you did these things, the easier and faster they would be - rather than an actual number, it would be a lot more dynamic, thus no two characters would be exactly the same.

Makrond wrote:Counter-Strike is an MMO

Actually, Counter-Strike is a perfectly ordinary multiplayer online game. There's only a small amount of people on each server, and there isn't really anything "Massive" about it.

Counter strike is a-
WRONG

I think you've misunderstood the meaning of MMO.

Massively Multiplayer Online (game)

Massively meaning lots of players are always on and stuff is always happening that might effect you. In Counter strike, while you aren't playing you can't be killed and you can't gain kills and that's all that matters. In WoW you might come back to find that the city is under attack from rabid mole rats from zog (I dunno. I don't play WoW.) or that a shop that sells stuff has different stuff today.

The rest are obvious. (How in the hell would you have a single player online game!?)

I'm not really angry I just wanted to shout wrong for some reason.