Wolfire Games Forums

Is that a pun or what?!

Hey guys, I wrote to David about this and his was nice enough to answer, but I'd also like to throw it out there and get a consensus: since I was about, well, born, I've been making games, either on paper or on computer, and a few years ago I discovered one could actually make a career of it as a Game Designer. Trouble is that the Games Industry is stagnant as hell, content to remake old hits, and I want to make new and interesting stuff, not sequels.

As luck would have it though I discovered the Independent Games movement a few months ago, and I'm now thinking of doing little projects and eventually starting my own company with a few like minded friends. It's risky as hell, but I'd rather die on the street than have my soul crushed making Sonic the Hedgehog games.

Since Wolfire is pretty much a materialisation of this dream I've taken great interest in its workings, and so, as they say, here I am: I'm 18, doing my first year of Computer Science and Technology at University (or College - pick one) in Montpellier in the South of France, and my real question is, where best to go from here, to end up where I want to be?


Right now I'm wondering whether to stay at university for 3, or 5 or even 8 years, and whether I should spend those years doing more general Computer Science or switch to a specialised Game Design school or an IUT (University Institute of Technology) and do something more hands on and specialised.

What I'm thinking is that, though it may be fun to study the history of Video Games as an art and medium and look at emergent trends, unless you're great at writing code you're going to be dead weight on a team of 4 or 5. Then again not everything offered in Computer Science seems useful for making games. Information Technology occupies the middle ground in that it's more software and less hardware orientation - more about writing code than studying programming languages.

Let the debate begin! I won't tell you what David answered in case that influences replies - oh, and one final thing: whatever I choose to do I have to take English as a subject. Here is the description of one of the modules, written in English by a future lecturer of mine, in a bid to impress the reader with his fine mastery of the tongue:

Among the three weak goals of our University system across disciplines there are the following ones : cultural maturity, in particular for scientific / technical Education ; the active mastery of English as a second language ; relational skills (autonomy even when working in group, social roles, etc). The course, proposed as an alternative to a Course of English for those students that have already some knowledge of English, wants to use English as a vehicular language in perfect agreement with the CLIL method (cited above). Seminars will be given by different teachers ; students will work in groups to a project that they will defend in public entirely in English.

Ouch! Now this should be hilarious

What you should get into depends on what you're interested in. There's no be-all-end-all field of game development. Get into something that you're particularly passionate about, and then find team members that are able to fill the other spots. Although from what I've seen, it's the easiest to find team members if you're the lead programmer. They're usually the ones that tie everything together and know the limits of development, so many programmers are reluctant to join a game development team lead by an artist or marketer.

If you're working alone you'll need to know about all the parts of game development at least on a basic level. Hell, even if you're working with other people you should know all the parts of game development at least on a basic level. I don't think that you need to be or have a wicked sick programmer or a crazy artist (even though it certainly helps). What makes or breaks a game is the design. Create something that's fun! It looks like indie gamers tend to focus less on how pretty a game is and more on how fun it is to play.

Also, you don't even need schooling. You can find everything you need through personal experience and the internet. That's the great thing about indie game development; anyone can get into it. I've never been in a class that focuses on game design, but I think that it's a rather dumb idea. You cannot teach innovation, which is a staple of indie gaming. You can certainly tell people to innovate and show examples of innovation, but that's not teaching innovation. You cannot teach people how to think up of things that noone else has ever thought up of (and made) before. Game design sense and innovation is something that I feel comes best from personal experience and unique perspective.

Also, I think it's unwise to withhold a relevant answer just because you're afraid that it'll affect the debate. It should affect the debate, that's what debate is for. If some people are so shallow that they change their reasoning based on the thoughts of someone who they think is pro, then too bad for them. Their answers would be similarly shallow and people probably wouldn't pay much attention to it. I don't think that there is anyone here, though.

I think that what you did is an interesting debate topic in of itself. Who else would withhold facts from the rest of the community in the name of protecting common interest, thinking that something that affects the tide of opinion, for whatever reason, is something that should be avoided even if it means that the community is left oblivious? This is something that government officials are known for and infamous for doing. Interesting...

I wrote a nice big reply to this a while back but somehow it wasn't submitted and so I've been a bit unwilling to try again. Guess I'll just keep it short.

I think you have a good point, though I do think that, as one of the (if not the singular) founding fathers of the company whose forum we are currently on, David's opinion would be very influential, even if it's at a subconcious level. I myself really look up to a guy who, younger than me, had started his own company and developed a reasonable succesful commercial game, and I'm far to up myself to ever have had idols.

Most people seem to think Game Programming, which is interesting, as I would have thought a more general and wider encompassing view of Computer Science would enable one to better incorporate new technology - Indie Games are, after all, happiest on the cutting edge - currently there's a lot of research going on in AI, Parser development and other I/O systems that could well revolutionise gaming for the next generation.

David said "I have never heard of a specific game design school that is good for anything besides creating employees for EA or whoever is sponsoring them" - indeed, the one I was considering has close ties with Ubisoft Montpellier, while another in Lyon is pretty much paid for my Lyon Game: it's the age old question of training vs education. To quote Stephen Fry's "The Liar":

I have become increasingly aware in recent years of what can only be called a conspiracy on a massive scale. I have watched the most talented, the most able and most promising students (…) being bought up. Purchased. Procured. Acquired. Gotten.

Let us say an undergraduate arrives with phenomenal ability in, for example, English. A natural candidate for a doctorate, a teaching post, a life of scholarship or, failing those, a creative existence as poet, novelist or dramatist. He arrives full of just such ambitions and sparkling ideals but then … they get to him.

Two years after graduation this first-class mind is being paid eighty thousand pounds a year to devise advertising slogans for a proprietary brand of peanut butter or is writing snobbish articles in glossy magasines about exiled European monarchs and their children or some such catastrophic drivel

They can keep it! Of course, a lot of what I'm doing now will be of more help for setting up networks, repairing computers and manipulating databases than making games - the fundamentals of computer technology.

Neat points! So sorry that your old long post was deleted. I know how that feels.

Indie Games are, after all, happiest on the cutting edge - currently there's a lot of research going on in AI, Parser development and other I/O systems that could well revolutionise gaming for the next generation.

Are they really? More of the famous indie games I've seen are famous for their creative design concepts, not necessarily their creative technical concepts. You don't have to take advantage of bleeding edge technical research to make games with innovative features. Even Overgrowth, the closest indie game I've seen to pushing modern technical limitations, appears to take advantage of stable and well-documented techniques for its engine more than anything (if the podcast is something to be believed), but it certainly has unique features planned. Maybe that's what you meant?

I may be very wrong or have misunderstood you or the podcast, but give me a break I just woke up!

You're right of course, it is more concepts than technology that are experimented with by independent games, at least in terms of graphics, but AI is rooted in the gameplay not the look: The fact that agents are generally far less good at playing games than humans has led to the tendency for the player to face overwhelming numbers - think Doom for example: wouldn't it be more frightening if one highly intelligent monster stalked you throughout the game, striking when you least expected it and disappearing into the shadows? It's a concept I've been knocking around myself for a few years now, and I won't elaborate further because I want to be the one to make it
I've strayed a little - basically I do think that if ideas are to revolutionise gameplay, they do need to keep a broad view of the technology, and if not use the newest techniques, then use old ones in new ways that a blinkered education might leave one incapable of seeing.

Course, I'm of the opinion that all opinions are absurd and as such I prefer to attack ideas than defend them - everything I've written is basically in reponse to the majority on this poll who believe that Game Programming is the way to go. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps such an education is too focused on the current way of doing things and that a broarder take would be advisable - the fact that I'm asking the question at all means that I have no idea myself what the right answer is, indeed, there probably isn't one.

For now I'll just concentrate on writing my novel - you know, the one that's destined to make Harry Potter look like airport fiction?

Edit: To advocate once more the (so far) unpopular options, and continue this trend of quoting various erudites, here's Jeff Howard from GameDev.net:

To be able to create the kinds of games you see on store shelves, you are going to have to delve into topics more advanced than those covered in most game programming books. Some of what you need can be found in tutorials, but you are also going to need to pick up some books on graphics, artificial intelligence, networking, physics, and so on. This is where pursuing a degree in Computer Science comes in handy, because you will be required to take classes that you may think don't apply to game programming, but they do.

I've strayed a little - basically I do think that if ideas are to revolutionise gameplay, they do need to keep a broad view of the technology, and if not use the newest techniques, then use old ones in new ways that a blinkered education might leave one incapable of seeing.

Hm. Right, I agree that revolutionary gameplay ideas need to do things in new ways to be revolutionary. I don't think that's a problem for programmers. From my experience, programming is more about critical thinking and bringing abstract new ideas together than anything.

Course, I'm of the opinion that all opinions are absurd and as such I prefer to attack ideas than defend them - everything I've written is basically in reponse to the majority on this poll who believe that Game Programming is the way to go. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps such an education is too focused on the current way of doing things and that a broarder take would be advisable - the fact that I'm asking the question at all means that I have no idea myself what the right answer is, indeed, there probably isn't one.

Taking game programming courses does not limit your creativity. Similarly, I don't think that art and design courses can teach you how to be innovative; innovation is something I think can only come from a unique personal perspective. This is why I chose game programming to be more important than other choices, since no matter how revolutionary and innovative your ideas are, you'll need to either know how to program it or pay someone else to do that to bring your ideas to life.

I never took a game programming course, so you may indeed be right that it can brainwash you into doing things in uninnovative ways, but I really doubt that learning game programming hampers creativity or critical/abstract thinking. Using new techniques or old ones in new ways should not be a problem for a programmer at all, I think that's actually expected (perhaps even mandatory) of professional programmers.

Also, if you're an indie game dev, you don't even have to take classes to make things in the first place. There are more than enough tutorials online and books to help you learn how to make all aspects of games.

For now I'll just concentrate on writing my novel - you know, the one that's destined to make Harry Potter look like airport fiction?

Harry Potter is airport fiction. Sorry if that was the joke.

What I'm differentiating is general programming theory and in practice and specific games programming. I myself am doing Computer Science so it's unsupring that I'm an advocate for it, for very unphilosophical reasons

At any rate I can't afford to get into any of the special Video Game schools except for two which are public/state/national/
whatever-the-heck-you-call-them-wherever-you-happen-to-come-from-dear-anonymous-reader schools, and these are only open as of the 3rd and/or 4th year of university level education:

My first opportunity to do anything Game-y as a subject will thus be in my third year, at the University of arts and litterature - they offer a "Licence Professionel Jeux Vidéo" for those having completed two years of university in a variety of subjects including Computer Science: this is a course geared toward working in the industry straight afterwards, with the emphasis being on a 4 month internship - they are heavily connected with Ubisoft Montpellier.
This is in Montpellier, where I live (just across the round in fact) and costs the same as any other 3rd year university course (a bit more than 300€ including insurance). This is all translated from french and when I don't understand what they're on about I just do a word for word - here's apologising in advance for spelling and translation errors:

FIRST SEMESTER
Sociology of innovation
- Numeric communication
- Introduction de video game technologies (game programming)
- Introduction to 3D graphics software
- Conception tools and pre-production dossier
- "Extreme" management (for when things get hectic)
- Video Game analysis
- Applied English

SECOND SEMESTER
-Project
- Internship

In Angoulème, a little town slightly to the North West, near Bordeaux, there's a Master level school called ENJMIN (The National School of Games and Interactive and Numeric Medias). They offer 2 year course in Game Design, Sound Design, Visual Design, Team Management and Game Programming for those who've already complete three years of university.
I can get into Game Programming after 3 years of Computer Science but I can only get into Game Design through a more litterary education, or the above course in Montpellier. It's specialised and above all, wonderfully cheap (about 400€ a year), though naturally with only 10 students per course, getting in will be hard work - good thing I'm a clucking genius:

FIRST SEMESTER
- English
- Analysis of films, games and interactive, numeric medias
- Economics and laws governing Games and other audiovisual productions
- Sensibilisation to the socio-professionnal contexte of Video Games
- Sociology of interactive medias and the concepts of ergonomic man machine interfaces
- Computer Science foundations
- Foundations of sound recording and editing
- Foundations of still and moving image capturing and editing
- Elements of image synthesis
- Audio visual narration
- Foundations of financial accounting

SECOND SEMESTER
Programming:
- Game software ingenuity
- Game AI
- Continued image and sound synthesis
- Animation Algorithmes
- Game and virtual reality programming
- Mobile and MMO game programming
- Research project

Design:
- Production processuses in linear and non linear medias
- Introduction to film direction techniques
- Principals of Game Design
- Advanced Game Design techniques
- Research project

... ETC

On the other hand we have a "Master of Artifical Intelligence Engineering" diploma here at the Montpellier Science uni, that is assuming I decide to go beyond my third year at all. So - what think you mister Skofo?


William