Wolfire Games Forums

Chainsaw man wrote:Im bitter because I hate trolls, thay are anoying:

Those mountain trolls were pretty annoying. They weren't as annoying as the dragon. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL A DRAGON WITH THROWING KNIVES?

Renegade_Turner wrote: HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KILL A DRAGON WITH THROWING KNIVES?

Aim for the eyes?

tokage wrote:But you are fighting wind mills here. You may be a hero, but Don Quixote also was.
The whole society is changing now a days from privacy to publicity. People are willingly and unwillingly giving up more and more control of their data by posting on social networks, being findable on Google and stricter surveillance like for example 'data retention' in the EU. I don't say, that is the same as posting your problems in a relative pseudonymous internet forum, but it is the effect of the same kind of change.
And this change is somewhat an unstoppable consequence of the internet. You can try to fight the individual effects, but most of the times you will not win.
And I think turning to strangers on the internet over emotional problems under pseudonym is not one of the worst things on the list, so I am saving my time and efforts for those.

Ahh, well said, good Sir. However, simply because the effort is relatively futile, I will continue to attempt to expose the foolishness which exists in baring your heart and soul on a public forum for all to see, all of whom are people who you don't know. I can understand such a thing on something like Facebook if only your actual friends can see it, the point is they're actually your friends, and JIm, John and Jack from Fucksville, Tennessee can't log on to hear your deepest fears and regrets.

Also, I applaud you for disagreeing with me but not regressing to the intellectual capacity of a 10-year-old in doing so. Others were not so successful.

TadMod wrote:The point that people cannot make an escape from real life on the internet? If you think that those people are weak, or have no friends in real life, you truly are unscrupulous and heartless. Although I agree that attention whoring on the internet is a disease that must be purged, are the wolfire forums the place to do it? Save it for twitter or facebook.

What's most puzzling about this is that you've even missed the point that was hidden in your own post. I'm all for escapes from real life! Escapism! Roleplaying! Fantasy! It's great fun. It's why people can give the impression of being a badass on the internet while actually being quite mild-mannered and polite in reality.

However, you make the mistake that bringing your personal problems onto an anonymous internet forum is "an escape from real life". That's not an escape from real life, that's bringing your "real life" onto the internet, where people generally don't really want to hear about it, unless there's something noteworthy about you.

Seek consolation from "real people" in "real life" and not some mere acquaintances which you've never met. And "acquaintances" is being generous.

TadMod wrote:I don't care if you flame me, because your motivations were obviously thoroughly misguided, and it would only further hurt your own reputation.

I don't see how any of this has hurt my reputation. All it has served to do is add fuel to the smouldering enigma which is my reputation.

Also, flame you? Why would I flame you? It's not like you said anything which threatened or insulted me as you blundered through your attempt to take the moral high ground.

Renegade_Turner wrote:... However, you make the mistake that bringing your personal problems onto an anonymous internet forum is "an escape from real life". That's not an escape from real life, that's bringing your "real life" onto the internet, where people generally don't really want to hear about it, unless there's something noteworthy about you...

The other week I was taking a piss and for some reason I decided to do it with style (no one was home, so I was feeling much more "free" that day) so I thought to myself "I know! I'll stand on one leg like a fuckin' pro" and then began while standing on one leg ...

anyway I ended up losing my balance and fell on the ground while simultaneously pissing on myself, the floor, the edge of the toilet, and the nearby wall ...

That's something I'd never tell someone from "real life"

Assaultman67 wrote:

Renegade_Turner wrote:... However, you make the mistake that bringing your personal problems onto an anonymous internet forum is "an escape from real life". That's not an escape from real life, that's bringing your "real life" onto the internet, where people generally don't really want to hear about it, unless there's something noteworthy about you...

The other week I was taking a piss and for some reason I decided to do it with style (no one was home, so I was feeling much more "free" that day) so I thought to myself "I know! I'll stand on one leg like a fuckin' pro" and then began while standing on one leg ...

anyway I ended up losing my balance and fell on the ground while simultaneously pissing on myself, the floor, the edge of the toilet, and the nearby wall ...

That's something I'd never tell someone from "real life"

...

Assaultman67 wrote:

Renegade_Turner wrote:... However, you make the mistake that bringing your personal problems onto an anonymous internet forum is "an escape from real life". That's not an escape from real life, that's bringing your "real life" onto the internet, where people generally don't really want to hear about it, unless there's something noteworthy about you...

The other week I was taking a piss and for some reason I decided to do it with style (no one was home, so I was feeling much more "free" that day) so I thought to myself "I know! I'll stand on one leg like a fuckin' pro" and then began while standing on one leg ...

anyway I ended up losing my balance and fell on the ground while simultaneously pissing on myself, the floor, the edge of the toilet, and the nearby wall ...

That's something I'd never tell someone from "real life"

Stupidity makes for great laughter.

Who on earth considers you an enigma, Renegade?
I'm not sure if you can really use that to drive your shameful self flattery... by all means continue to be shameful, but when there are so many other terms you could use that would seem more appropriate, why enigma? You're not that cryptic, if... at all?

Or perchance it might be the Undereducated who find Ren's language an inkling too sophisticated for their discombobulated brains.

Renegade_Turner wrote:

TadMod wrote:The point that people cannot make an escape from real life on the internet? If you think that those people are weak, or have no friends in real life, you truly are unscrupulous and heartless. Although I agree that attention whoring on the internet is a disease that must be purged, are the wolfire forums the place to do it? Save it for twitter or facebook.

What's most puzzling about this is that you've even missed the point that was hidden in your own post. I'm all for escapes from real life! Escapism! Roleplaying! Fantasy! It's great fun. It's why people can give the impression of being a badass on the internet while actually being quite mild-mannered and polite in reality.

However, you make the mistake that bringing your personal problems onto an anonymous internet forum is "an escape from real life". That's not an escape from real life, that's bringing your "real life" onto the internet, where people generally don't really want to hear about it, unless there's something noteworthy about you.

Seek consolation from "real people" in "real life" and not some mere acquaintances which you've never met. And "acquaintances" is being generous.

No, I didn't miss the point to my own post. You did. You aren't that clever.

Escapism and Role-playing are very different from discussing your personal problems with peers, no matter their physical location.

If people "generally don't want to hear about it", why are their services such as twitter and facebook? Sure, most people aren't noteworthy enough to have ten million followers or friends, but you honestly believe that friends don't care about eachother's issues? And if you are determined to pusue the argument that they aren't "real" friends, because friendship apparently cannot be cultivated online, then I suggest you think about it differently; Is it not more appropriate to gain advice from peers anonymously rather than facing possible humiliation from their trusted "real life" counterparts?

...And yet I reiterate; many people do not have the courage to face humiliation from "real life" relationships, and perhaps cannot afford to speak with a counsellor or psychiatrist if the issues are that serious. If you do not believe that people can be helped by peers from around the world, then so be it, but then you must realise that this thread was pointless, as you have contradicted your apparent point of the inability of individuals to garner support through personal issues, as seen in the 3 pages of support for you. Perhaps I am not as "clever" as you to spot this multi-layered thematic concern which you say you raise, but as is most likely, you have a shallow point flourished with elegant language... it's still a polished turd at the end of the day.

TadMod wrote:I don't care if you flame me, because your motivations were obviously thoroughly misguided, and it would only further hurt your own reputation.

I don't see how any of this has hurt my reputation. All it has served to do is add fuel to the smouldering enigma which is my reputation.

Also, flame you? Why would I flame you? It's not like you said anything which threatened or insulted me as you blundered through your attempt to take the moral high ground.[/quote]

Definition of "enigma" accourding to dictionary.com:
"a person of puzzling or contradictory character"
I cannot think of a better word to describe your posts, the words are lovely, but the meaning behind them exceedingly vain.

Again, you believe this is some epic moral conflict? Morality doesn't even come into this... again, lovely words, but my original post was about the pointlessness of this thread, not some political stance on the lack of altruistic morals in the common paradigms of societal standards, and how they reflect on the internet. (see, I can polish a turd just as well as you can)

Chainsaw man wrote:*Stuff*

I have read your post in full, on the reccommendation of tokage that I do so, and while some of your spelling is cringe-worthy, you do make some decent points.

At the start of your post you say something about me squandering your pity. I didn't intend for people to actually give me pity. I thought people would pick up on the irony of me asking for pity. I figured people would be more wary considering the source of the request.

I acknowledge the fact that people are awkward with being open to others. However, I fully believe that this is because of how they are raised. You're supposed to have friends you can tell shit to. The kind of friends that you're so comfortable with that they come over to your house and ask you if you have anything to eat rather than waiting for you to ask if they're hungry. Friends your comfortable with.

However, I do realise that this can be difficult to achieve if you are someone whose family moves around a lot and you're never in one place long enough to make proper friends. However, even a year can be enough to make someone a good friend. For the first year of college, I wasn't really good friends with anyone, just acquaintances with everyone. Now there's one person called Paddy who's the one person I'm proper friends with from college, and we got on great after a year.

Making close friends is another thing that takes time. If you're going to get scared away because people don't take to you straight away, you're doing it wrong.

The most important skill in life, in my opinion, is being able to talk to people. Once you can do that, you're half way to everything you need. It takes practice though. Do you expect being able to drive a car after trying once? If you're not good at it the first time, are you going to say "Fuck that, that's too hard, I'll just shy away from it."

Having said the thing about not having enough time to become close to people, if you practice being open when talking to people enough, you'll be comfortable with being open with almost anyone. It's a skill which has to be learned. Unfortunately, some people consider honesty and openness too early in a friendship or relationship to be a bad thing, even a relationship killer. I'm not happy with this attitude.

But yeah, if you practice, it's easy to be open with people. Especially if you've had a few drinks.

Uberbeard wrote:Who on earth considers you an enigma, Renegade?
I'm not sure if you can really use that to drive your shameful self flattery... by all means continue to be shameful, but when there are so many other terms you could use that would seem more appropriate, why enigma? You're not that cryptic, if... at all?

When have you ever known me for anything but shameful self flattery? Also, enigmatic does not necessarily have anything to do with being cryptic. You're holding a very narrow view of the definition of the word.

TadMod wrote:No, I didn't miss the point to my own post. You did. You aren't that clever.

You did, I didn't, and I clearly am.

TadMod wrote:Escapism and Role-playing are very different from discussing your personal problems with peers, no matter their physical location.

You are quite good at repeating things which I have already said in my own posts.

TadMod wrote:If people "generally don't want to hear about it", why are their services such as twitter and facebook? Sure, most people aren't noteworthy enough to have ten million followers or friends, but you honestly believe that friends don't care about eachother's issues?

If I ever said friends didn't care about each other's problems, then you'll have to quote where exactly I said so. I have a good friend named Conor who I tell about family problems or college problems or relationship problems. I find that comforting. There's actual feedback, and time donated by a friend to listening to me directly. It means something since I can say I actually know him. It's real, it's connectivity. Internet connections don't provide that.

TadMod wrote:And if you are determined to pusue the argument that they aren't "real" friends, because friendship apparently cannot be cultivated online, then I suggest you think about it differently; Is it not more appropriate to gain advice from peers anonymously rather than facing possible humiliation from their trusted "real life" counterparts?

It depends on how liberal your view of the word "friend" is. Am I allowed think of a band member of some band as my friend because they replied to mail I sent them on MySpace?

In the past I elected to call people from places like Yahoo! Chat and so on my "friends". However, any time I ever tried to initiate serious conversation about issues I had with anything, all feedback, however well-wishing, fell flat and short of what I was looking for because it was so impersonal. It's just text on a screen. I might as well have been looking for advice from Yahoo! answers.

Also, no, I don't think it's more appropriate to ask anonymous people online about problems in your personal life. They don't really know you. They know whatever internet persona you have presented before you. Actual friends who know you properly as a person are better suited to helping you deal with personal conflicts, purely for the fact they actually know who you are, and you're not just some text on a computer screen to them.

TadMod wrote:If you do not believe that people can be helped by peers from around the world, then so be it, but then you must realise that this thread was pointless, as you have contradicted your apparent point of the inability of individuals to garner support through personal issues, as seen in the 3 pages of support for you.

Support for me? Excuse me, but in all fairness, it's 3 pages of people who don't really know me at all going "I'm sorry for your loss." However well intended or sincere the words are, and I'm sure they are said with the best intentions, I would find no solace in them had something tragic actually transpired. Forgive me, sympathisers, if you call this insolence, but I could easily just program a computer program to send me messages saying "I'm sorry for your loss, friend." That would have the same weight.

TadMod wrote:Perhaps I am not as "clever" as you to spot this multi-layered thematic concern which you say you raise, but as is most likely, you have a shallow point flourished with elegant language... it's still a polished turd at the end of the day.

A good attempt at a straw man argument. I don't recall ever saying I was addressing any social concern of multiple themes. Again you'll have to quote me where this occurred. I was making a satiristic point based on my view of members of society's tendancy in recent years towards secluding themselves from the real world in favour of the make believe one they have created for themselves on the internet.

You have chosen to focus on how the points were articulated, which is, of course, a matter of no consequence. As long as someone can spell, I have no qualms with the language they use. Do not be envious simply because you're not comfortable with using language as I use it. You seem to be, otherwise you would not have mentioned it, considering it is so "pointless".

TadMod wrote:Again, you believe this is some epic moral conflict? Morality doesn't even come into this... again, lovely words, but my original post was about the pointlessness of this thread, not some political stance on the lack of altruistic morals in the common paradigms of societal standards, and how they reflect on the internet. (see, I can polish a turd just as well as you can)

Your point was about the pointlessness of this thread? That's a pretty pointless argument. Observe the area of the forums this thread is in. Now don't you feel silly?

As for your original post, it more seemed like "You're a bad guy Renegade_Turner" to me. You did mention to "leave it for Twitter or Facebook" or something along those lines, but Twitter or Facebook would be a pointless place to take this stance on, considering 90% of the people I have on those sites are people I know from Ireland. They aren't the intended targets of this thread.

Again, your attempt at elegant language simply comes across as needless overarticulation to seem stylish. My articulation of my points is simply the way I am comfortable with making my points. There's a difference. Jealousy will get you nowhere.

While the thread itself has little to prove, I both agree and disagree with RT.

I agree that if you are confining yourself to anonymous online friends, you need more than just support. Social dependence is a key aspect of human life. Friends online can provide this, to an extent, but can never replace the social benefits of physically interacting with someone; sharing a joke, discussing an interesting topic, expressing your feelings. None of those can happen in an online environment. They depend upon spontaneous reactions from both parties, allowing interaction to reach a much higher level than the best threads in a forum.

I disagree that expressing a troubling situation online is an ineffective strategy for overcoming problems in life. I'd compare it much to that of a support group. Members are anonymous, and though the people themselves have absolutely no connection, it can go a long way, letting members "get it off their chest". Sure, you obviously don't have my previously mentioned spontaneous reactions online, as you might have in a support group, but that doesn't mean it's useless. Users can let out their feelings without fears of repercussions.

We really do need more psychological debates on these forums.

Renegade_Turner wrote:Also, no, I don't think it's more appropriate to ask anonymous people online about problems in your personal life. They don't really know you. They know whatever internet persona you have presented before you. Actual friends who know you properly as a person are better suited to helping you deal with personal conflicts, purely for the fact they actually know who you are, and you're not just some text on a computer screen to them.[/b]

The internet persona on a forum usually isn't totally separate from the real person. You can keep quiet about some things and be more vocal about others and outright lie. You can also do all that in the real world, but you can still get friends in the real world.

That said, internet people very, Very rarely have the chance to get to *know* you as a person; in real life it's just so much simpler.

I acknowledge the fact that people are awkward with being open to others. However, I fully believe that this is because of how they are raised. You're supposed to have friends you can tell shit to. The kind of friends that you're so comfortable with that they come over to your house and ask you if you have anything to eat rather than waiting for you to ask if they're hungry. Friends your comfortable with.

Making close friends is another thing that takes time. If you're going to get scared away because people don't take to you straight away, you're doing it wrong.

It is very rare to get friends like that online. When it happens, you probably meet in real life too. Before that, it takes a long time to build up trust, to learn to know the person the other tries to be, then the person he really is. I don't have friends like that, but I know of friendships formed over the internet.

However, it's not that hard to get an online community going that, while it doesn't know much about any individual person's real life, cares enough about the online persona to offer honest condolences or congratulations. People in the community notice that someone is missing (probably a month or two after he went missing), and worry about him. They talk, argue, discuss. They learn who they agree with, and who they can't stand, much like people in the real life. It's just much rarer to take the last step and really become friends.


And now I'll tell you a story. About the only other guy I know of that lied about a person dying for his own amusement. In his case, it was when people started wondering why a person had stopped posting, and he decided to be a jerk. He was an obnoxious guy who toted his arrogant views (or what he told us were his views - perhaps he just liked trolling). Some people liked him, some couldn't stand him, everybody knew him. He was banned for cheating. His cheating was revealed in a match designed for just that, with all other participants ganging up on him. Other people left the community in the aftermath, but I could still "go" there and discuss this with the people who were around back then.
All this, and I never actually KNEW the guy who was banned, or those who left. I wouldn't know the people I'd discuss it with, either, but they would remember the same stories. I still am part of the community, though I don't post there as much. I might not know their real names (but I do for some) or even remember their account names (but I remember many). I wouldn't call them friends, and they wouldn't call me a friend either (although friendships have been formed) - but I'd very much like to shake hands with some of them. They aren't friends, but they are a friendly bunch.

When have you ever known me for anything but shameful self flattery? Also, enigmatic does not necessarily have anything to do with being cryptic. You're holding a very narrow view of the definition of the word.

How could he *know* you, since you are an enigma AND an online persona?

BTW, what does enigma mean if not cryptic? Riddle, mystery, enigma... isn't that all it means? You were probably thinking of something different. I'm sorry to say I can't think of many positive things I could say about your persona, but "colourful" would at least fit.

I'm only taking the time to write this, because I wanted to know if you'd always been a jerk, and to my surprise found a post where you tried to be open. This post seemed quite polite and mature, and you said as much, but it wasn't the least shameful because it was true. Now your posts are arrogant and little else. In short, I'm not writing this because of what I think of your opinions or posts, but because I'm an optimist and I think even a troll like you (that's how your posts read to me) must have a little human inside him.

Renegade_Turner wrote:When have you ever known me for anything but shameful self flattery? Also, enigmatic does not necessarily have anything to do with being cryptic. You're holding a very narrow view of the definition of the word.

Uh, no, but I am assuming the intent in which you used it. Frankly, I don't think you can pull that guff twice Renegade, it's repetitive, and you're funnier than that.

There are obvious reasons why I would assume you were sticking with the traditional definition of the term, one of those being that it's the traditional definition of the term. Just looked it up on thefreedictionary, it's got Greek/Latin roots, the most obvious being aenigma, which means 'to speak in riddles'.

The other reason being that I assumed it was self flattery, which is brilliant, but I don't think calling yourself contradictory (which may or may not be true) is particularly flattering. I just don't see you opening that up in an argument (where you really don't want to be contradictory, or by extension risk coming off hypocritical) without being more explicit about it, but perhaps now I am being flattering.

I don't often use words that have secret synonyms that most people wouldn't use them for, because I like people to know what I mean. In that respect, perhaps you are being cryptic, but that doesn't mean your reputation is (a smouldering enigma, that is), and now you've suggested that you aren't using it with that definition (or you're just using that as a counter attack).

I eagerly await a post in which you explain that use, instead of just picking at my definition whilst remaining vague. Unless of course you just admonish me by suggesting it was a throw away attempt at humor which shouldn't really matter, and tell me I'm just being captious. You could use big words, I'd feel pretty bad about it.

I'm curious as to everyone's perspectives on therapy and psychiatry and the like. It seems one of the most major issues here is talking to someone who you do not really "know" to help vent or just talk about difficulties in your life. That's always been my impression of the point of therapy. Do you guys think that is a bad idea as well?
I can admit that I am terrible at talking to my friends about things, but I also hate doing it online unless it is a serious circumstance. It's probably unhealthy, I've been trying to work on it but not much progress here. The point is that I'm completely neutral right now, this is a good argument.

That has similarities but im not sure if its directly comparable simply because the difference is a therapist is being paid, has received education, and who's purpose is more to diagnose and help relieve deep rooted problems ...

I doubt you will find that kinda help on the internet ...

On the other hand, I'm not so sure how well a therapist works though ... seems a bit hollow ... sorta like prostitution ... I mean you pay someone to listen to your emotional rants? If you have to pay someone to have an emotional vent then that's gotta be depressing in itself ...

I say its hollow because its a one sided discussion ... If you pay a hooker to sleep with you, they are completely emotionally detached from you ... its just their job to amuse you ...

However, if you find a girl who likes you and you like her, and you sleep with her ... it means much more to you both ...

I think for those people who are strong therapy advocates are under the delusion that their therapist completely cares about their emotional state and the money is just a formality, just as a person who hires a hooker is under the delusion that the hooker finds them attractive and wants to have sex with you (or even loves you), and the money is just a formality ...