Bows and Arrows

[wolfie]

Any thoughts?

[EPR89]

I think you should use the search function more often.

[Endoperez]

Many people have asked for them. Some people (including me) say they have little place in a melee game.

[Karel]

Any thoughts?

Yes: "nope"

Here's my thought

[Causeless]

Suggested literally dozens of times.

Here are my thoughts of ranged combat in general, from a thread I made a while back:

While melee (and particularly unarmed) combat is a very bit part of Overgrowth and Lugaru, ranged weapons cannot be ignored. The knife was a very useful throwing weapon, and greatly helped when fighting in groups or taking out an enemy safely. Small weapons like hand-bows could be very interesting, and I feel it's an avenue worth exploring.

A lot of debate has gone on over purely ranged weapons, however. The main issues are to do with game balance, and how it could detract from the primarily unarmed combat, but also how is could even be implemented. Nobody wants to press a button and get someone to die. This is even an issue in Overgrowth in it's current form, and Lugaru.

Below, I propose a few steps that could make ranged fighting fully realized in Overgrowth.

1. Manual Control over Ranged Combat

In Lugaru, the knife was an almost useless weapon to throw if in active combat, as apposed to stealth. This is actually a good thing in many aspects; it encourages careful planning and tactics, and promotes a more erratic, random behavior to confuse the opponent (for example, while flipping then throwing a knife, despite your accuracy being much lower the enemy could get confused and fail to dodge the knife).

The main issue, however, was it was implemented in a way that felt very artificial. Instead of a "passive" approach, where the player would be able to see his own difficulties and issues with his system, it had a more in-your-face active approach, where you were essentially told it wouldn't work. Due to knife throwing being a completely automatic experience in Lugaru, you had little control over fighting with it, and you were pushed into knowing that knife became a useless ranged weapon in active combat, even in some circumstances which really should've worked that could've been interesting. This meant that experimentation wasn't encouraged; you knew from the get-go that knifes wouldn't work.

This is a pretty bad thing by itself, but also, in many ways, it scares the player. Despite the auto-targeting system working very well for judging who you want to attack, sometimes you could uselessly throw your knife into the dirt when attempting to throw it at a guard who has not yet seen you.

The way I propose this could all be fixed is Manual Targeting. How would this work, you ask? Surely, Overgrowth is far too fast paced to allow any accurate aiming of any sorts? Well, while this is true, you must remember that a feature integral to allowing this is already implemented into the game - slow motion. Here's the basic idea behind it all. Let's say an enemy is running towards you, and you, knife in hand, are hoping for a quick safe silent disposal. you press a key (right click when not within combat distance?), and right away you notice something! The outside and corners of the screen have been subtly darked and blurred, to give focus to the middle of the screen, while the camera angle has shifted slightly to give a better view in front of the player. The map objects have been desatured a little to make enemies stand out a little more. Paired with this is a very slight zoom effect to finish the effect.

Right away, you are aware something has changed, even if unaware of the ranged weapons mechanics. The desaturation of the map pieces and objects imply this must be related to the enemies, and the zoom completes this and tells you it is likely it is for a ranged weapon. Time slows down a little, and your character holds the knife above his head as a very tiny subtle crosshair appears. You aim at the enemy, making sure the gravity fall-off marker is over him, and before even throwing it you see him reacting at you holding the knife; adopting a more cautious stance and very slightly slowing his pace towards you, and getting in a pose more suitable for rolling away. A blur effect will appear; however, as apposed to being behind him as you would normally expect, it would actually be in front of him in the direction he is moving. This may sound confusing at first, but the effect, given time, would allow you to gauge the enemies speed, direction, and intentions very quickly.

Finally, you click the left mouse button and see the knife leaving your fingers. The computer AI would automatically calculate the amount of required spins, and try to gauge where you are trying to hit in 3D space by judging which enemy you are attempting to hit. Just as the knife float into the distance, you see time speed up and watch the enemy dodge to the best of his ability.

You may, ask, why go through this when you could achieve the same with an automatic system?

Well, here is a list:

* Player trial and error is promoted; the player threw the knife, and it's up to him to find out how valid it is to use. If he ends up losing the knife and having it used against him, he won't need to blame the computer in any way. He won't be as frustrated.

* It feels much more real! The enemy's dodge doesn't feel like an instant miss. Because you controlled where the knife went, you could've got a lucky hit and got it, but also even if you do not the enemy will need to guess where to dodge, feeling much fuller than Lugaru's constant dodges to the right.

* It's more fun. You feel a greater sense of achievement. That was YOU who threw the knife, and it was YOU who made it hit him. You have full control over the knife, and feel like you actually used some skill.

* It allows more freedom for future gameplay possibilities. Imagine, for example, if you simply want to freak an enemy out a little. You can throw the knife near him as a distraction, or even disable him for a few seconds by getting his foot, or you could try and get an instant silent stealth kill by going for the head - which actually, brings me to my next point:

2. An Approach that Works Despite the Players Gameplay Style

A major problem right now if that the knife only works in a few styles of gameplay, and haphazardly switches without feeling very intelligent. For example, knife throwing in the game isn't exceptionally stealthy right now; it can't be used as a distraction, and it could be thrown at the wrong guy. Even so, the player gets confused because it still offers some stealthier features like slitting someone's throat silently.

You never, ever want mixed messages like this. You always want the player to know what it can be used for, and what it cannot be used for.

In Overgrowth right now, stealth is very fickle. The knifes's combat-orientated stance means many things go wrong, a lot of the time. Some things are really quite needed to either help create a more general use for the knife, emulating the almost "companion" vibe from Lugaru, or instead try and give it a very defined use. If we have a knife at someone's throat, other people around you should try keeping their distance, and slicing their throat should create a moment of shock to get an avenue of escape so you can return back to a stealth position.

However, ranged weapons can help greatly with this; it satisfies both the passive and active styles of stealth.

Active stealth, is when you are moving quickly yet silently, stalking an enemy but not being noticed. This feels much more up close and personal.

Passive stealth is lying in wait, and killing without enemies not even knowing where you are. It's a style where you observe the patrol patterns, and make sure that if you kill somebody, you won't be anywhere near.

Right now, only active stealth is encouraged. This can be very confusing, and even thought many people (such as myself) find the chaotic nature fun, planning should also reward the player. Having ranged weapons means 2 main things;

1. You can kill silently, and from far, but...
2. The tiniest mistake can kill you.

My explanation for this is that you can't always have a perfect aim. Even while you aren't near the enemy, if you manage to hit a non-lethal shot, everyone could be trying to track you down, slowly sweeping in your direction. This balances it with the active stealth, and recreates the exact same exciting feature irregardless of playstyle!

3. Ranged Weapons that have Valid and Separate Uses

This is important because it means we can have interesting weapons that are all useful. Having lots of weapons which do the same thing can be rather boring, and just a few very interesting ones could be very nice.

I propose that all weapons we get should be somewhat fast-paced, but also small and allow for agility, but also not punishing melee combat.

Here are a list of good ranged weapons, I'd say:

* Knife (obvious reasons)
* Spear. This shouldn't be a highlight of the ranged weapons, and would very bulky. It would only be used as a last resort, and would be very impractical to actually carry around, not being particularly accurate.
* Hand-bow. This weapon would be rather accurate, but couldn't be used very well unless staying still. It would promote stealth combat in this way. It would be somewhat weak, only guaranteeing a kill if you get a headshot. In the case that a body-shot does not kill, it would stun the enemy for a few seconds, with them holding the stab wound, so you can rush over and salvage the kill. It would fire somewhat slowly, at around a shot every 4 seconds or so.
* Bow + Arrow. This is an obvious choice, but I don't feel it should be as prominent as others seem to want. It would be rather inaccurate, but have a somewhat quick firing rate. I feel it should be a pretty rare weapon, and you wouldn't be able to parkour very well with it unless slung over your back. Because of the inaccuracy, you would need to be very careful when using it for stealth. Hitting them in the body could result in a very large cry of pain, not perfectly emulating the hand-bows slight stun.

I tried to carefully choose these weapons so that none of them were perfect for everything. I hope you agree with what I say here, as I put a lot of thought in, and personally I am very excited for the possibility of ranged weapons in Overgrowth. I tried to formulate my ideas as perfectly as possible to melee and this would go hand-in-hand and one wouldn't outshine the other. and I think I got it right.

Anyways, leave comments below, and thanks for any feedback!

[Karel]

Just can't you guys simply reopen the last thread before doing another one? Or better, none at all!

[Endoperez]

Just can't you guys simply reopen the last thread before doing another one? Or better, none at all!

We can discuss whatever we want!

[Karel]

Just can't you guys simply reopen the last thread before doing another one? Or better, none at all!

We can discuss whatever we want!

Sure sure. Not in a billion different topics though. The second proposal from me was more like a subjective point of view. (Or is it)