Critical Hits

[Tally]

After reading a bit of the "Fighting in OG" thread and remembering a fairly recent post on the TF2 blog I was thinking about the implementation of an intelligent critical hit system. In essence, player performance directly affects chances of a critical hit. The method I imagined is similar to that described by the Valve team in that successive kills vastly increase the likelihood of a "critical hit" but that the roll for a critical would be after each kill meaning that continuous success against enemies would become more likely as kills were made in rapid succession. The method by which I was imagining his being done is that if a critical were successfully rolled after a kill, then the slow-motion effect would not completely end and perhaps there would be another audiovisual cue at which player strength/speed would be slightly increased and would be for each successfull critical roll. The increased chance of a successive critical due to a kill would only exist during a brief window and the length of this window would decrease on a negative linear slope due to fatigue while the likelihood of a critical kill during that window would increase exponentially due to adrenaline and the damage increase on a square root curve preventing supernatural strength due to a series of successful rolls. this sort of system would promote quick, effective fights with a couple of enemies but would lose it's advantage against larger numbers and would also increase the fluidity of fights against multiple enemies which would help it to resemble the martial arts movies we all love.

Kudos to me for typing this on my iPod, Chocolate is a crzy Thai martial arts movie, and comments are welcome.

[eyeCube]

Random critical hits are far too RPG-like, which I imagine is NOT the direction Wolfire wants to go. However, it could be like this;

Critical hits happen when the enemy is stunned (after they get up from being knocked down or something), and do more damage depending on timing, the area hit, and the initial damage (damage done by a regular attack).

A formula could be something like this:

damage = ((initial_damage + 30 - time_elapsed) * area_hit)

initial_damage is the damage done by a regular attack of its kind (let's say, 15 for a roundhouse kick.)

time_elapsed is the time that has gone by since the enemy became susceptible to a critical attack. This value begins at the initial damage value + 30 (if the maximum fps is 30- so that you have 1 second to react) and decreases 1 every frame. When it reverts to the initial damage value, the possibility of a critical attack is gone.

area_hit would be the extra damage done depending on where you hit (let's say; head would be 1.5, chest 1.2, leg 0.8, arm 0.8 ) and this multiplier increases or decreases damage dealt.


If you hit an enemy after 12 frames with a roundhouse kick in the face in a critical hit, you deal 49.5 damage, which is significantly more than the initial damage.

damage = ((15 + 30 - 12) * 1.5)



Any thoughts on this idea?

[Zaphon]

Critz!

I think this is a very cool idea! Say for example you just Punctured! an enemy, and you get the slow-motion effect, and adrenaline kicks in- (perhaps signaled by increased sharpness/motion blur) and the slow-mo keeps going, allowing you to quickly perform another throat-stab at the second enemy.

[nutcracker]

Critical hit could be done when the timing of perfect strike is 99% right.

[Skofo]

I do not personally know anyone who plays Team Fortress 2 who actually likes critical hits. I also do not know anyone who plays Super Smash Bros. Brawl who enjoys the random tripping system. I really don't think forced chance aspects are needed in TF2, Smash Bros or Overgrowth. Critical hits/tripping in TF2/Smash Bros seem to offer no benefit to gameplay other than making it easier for new players to occasionally win, but at the cost of dismaying many of the more hardcore/veteran fans who enjoy perfectly fair matches to accurately measure their skills against each other. Chance works better in RPG's where you can actually choose to adjust your critical hit chances and whatnot by raising particular stats or wearing particular equipment, and at the disadvantage of not being able to raise other stats or wear other equipment at the same time. In those types of RPG's, critical hits and chance in general become a part of the strategy. In TF2 and SSBB, they do not (except with the Kritzkrieg).

I like nutcracker's idea of making critical hits a skill thing more than a chance thing, though.

[invertin]

Randomness and unpredictability in battle is good.

Just like a challenge is good, and a long game is good.

However, an artificially challenging level is bad, and an artificially long game is also bad.

Artificial unpredictability won't really work. Though certain attacks might be more powerful in certain conditions. Like critical hits with slight control over whether or not it's critical.

[wormguy]

Randomness and unpredictability in battle is good.

Just like a challenge is good, and a long game is good.

However, an artificially challenging level is bad, and an artificially long game is also bad.

Artificial unpredictability won't really work. Though certain attacks might be more powerful in certain conditions. Like critical hits with slight control over whether or not it's critical.

At first I disagreed with this, but then I realized you were kind of right - REACTABLE randomness is fun. It can make the game more challenging and entertaining when you have to stay alert and react to certain semi-random events. I was recently playing a game called A New Zero. I was flying a plane and a shot from a gunboat knocked off my tail. It was fun to try to maintain control over the plane and try to fly back to base after that.

The opposite of this would be something like the tripping system in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. At any random point in the game a dash can cause you to trip and fall, and this has lead to many controller-throwingly frustrating moments where I'm in the middle of a combo and I trip, or I trip in front of someone's charging smash attack.

[Chainsaw man]

Crits... no.
Finishing Moves, now that would be awsome.

A finisher: player at 05%-00% health or life expectancy or whatever may have his arm ripped off my a stronger player, or maybe drammaticly flooded with an incredable beating with the attackers fists. Something Similar to the Puncture attack in Lugaru when strikeing some one with a knife (in honisty, Most of the time when I dont Click for the attack the enemy just ragdolls anyway, thats why I use that example)

Punctures, Flesh render/Flesh cutter, Beatdowns, and Bone breaker (causes Limb after impact to loose stiffness, so while in ragdoll it will move in some creepy ways.)

[Tally]

A lot of people seem to disagree with my idea on the principle that the critical hits are "random" or would destroy the requisite skill for defeating enemies. This is nothing like what I am proposing. All I am suggesting is that an efficient fighter would be slightly aided in the continuity of his fighting and that he would be rewarded for rapid execution of enemies. The strength/speed bolstering I suggested would be very slight and not enough to aid a player who is not already skilled. This would not be a berserk mode or anything to rely upon, another reason the critical should be unpredictable, just gratification for success.

[Chainsaw man]

I could Understand maybe Specal moves avalible for killing two enemys in under 5, 10, and 15 seconds. Maybe after two Knock outs the next move in that time frame becomes an insta killer/KO, or quad dammage attack.

So Turner dose a shoulder throw, and hurrls one of his enemys into another, and in turn KOs them as they fall of a ledge or slams into a wall. The next rabbit he fight in the next 5 seconds will be killed by the next attack, or quadded for 15 seconds. With that, his new attacks are alterd from Defult to the likes of really strong animatons.

You could even have an attack that may normal counter a punch, but instead grab the punch and break the advisarys arm, and slam him to the dirt.

[Johannes]

I really like Tally's idea, and think the devs should strongly consider possibly working crits into their formula.

Having played TF2 a good bit I am all for this. The Crit system works well, is not at all random, and encourages players to play well. It also allows you to get temporary winning sprees, which let you feel -extremely- satisfied and proud of your performance, and as the server manages this, even not-so-great players can have their occasional good moments, just great players would even more so.

I think this helps address an issue that has come up before: what motivation does one have to perform well in a fight? Using a Crit system to allow more damage, or to activate the slow motion aspect as kind of a bad-ass reward for example would be excellent. After all it should be the performance that makes it worth playing.

I know for me at least one of the most rewarding moments in Lugaru was always getting that slowdown because I knew I had done something really awesome, or beaten the hard boss I was fighting, or whatnot. That this has to be automatically regulated in a way that it doesn't happen too much as to not diminish the 'epicness' of the event goes without saying =P

On a related note, I'm hoping that the slow motion will not just be an on and off state as it was in the first game though. (I am talking more about single player here rather than Multiplayer, since slow-motion does present syncing issues because everyone would have it, and thus it wouldn't be a reward anymore...) For example getting multiple hits off of different guys in quick succession might cause a bit of a slowdown which helps you make more effective reversals. However nailing a leg cannon, (or move of relative difficulty/epicness) should give you much more of a slowdown, which would in a very intuitive way show you that what you just did is awesome and worth watching a bit slower, and if the enemy is then about to crash into a wall at full force (with appropriate mesh deformation on the wall as demonstrated in the 'controlled intersections post' I hope ) it will slow you waaaay down to let you really enjoy that you just completely owned that enemy.

Back to the crits: I find the combo system from Lugaru 1 similar to crits, just it doesn't (as far as I can tell) end up doing more damage. Countless other games like ragdollmaster do however increase damage depending on how many combos you've laid down without getting hurt. this should definitely play into the Game-play.

[Zhukov]

One possibility for a simple critical hit system that rewards skillful play would be something like that found in Ragdoll Masters. Each consecutive strike the player lands on an opponent does more damage then the one before it. Being struck by an enemy resets your damage-per-strike. So if the player fights well (ie. lands blows and avoids being hit) they are rewarded with extra damage. A good player could turn Turner into an implacable juggernaut of lethality, dealing one-hit-kills with ease.

That said, I really don't see a critical hit system of any kind fitting well into Overgrowth.
After all, Lugaru managed just fine without it.
EDIT: Although, the idea outlined above by Jo-shadow sounds pretty good. Just so long as it only applied to slow motion and not damage.

[Groveller]

Slo-mo would be very odd in multiplayer, indeed. Mmmm... optionable.

Rather than increasing damage\strength\speed after a series of successful attacks, what about adjusting the the damage\timing curve and the counter\timing curve (if there is such a thing) so that the "optimal zone" is slightly wider after each successful move? This would make well timed attacks or defense easier to pull off while the effect lasted, without granting a character super powers.

I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of lessening the precision required, though. It makes a nice reward, but might cheapen the whole idea of a combat system based on a player's skill...

Damn, I hate getting to the end of a post, only to find I'm not really keen on my idea anymore.

[Johannes]

Rather than increasing damage\strength\speed after a series of successful attacks, what about adjusting the the damage\timing curve and the counter\timing curve (if there is such a thing) so that the "optimal zone" is slightly wider after each successful move? This would make well timed attacks or defense easier to pull off while the effect lasted, without granting a character super powers.

I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of lessening the precision required, though. It makes a nice reward, but might cheapen the whole idea of a combat system based on a player's skill...

Actually, I think it might be interesting to have the reverse of what you mentioned: Have each successive hit shrink the 'sweet spot' zone of the curve, but in return reward successful hits with an increase in attack power.

This will allow a very skilled player to time hits in such a way to get high combos, lots of damage, etc. but it would take alot of skill and practice with the timing to master.

[Groveller]

That is a very nice twist!