Fight System Second Draft

[Swordarm]

Since I seem to have a problem uploading comments right now, I create this discussion thread for the privileged people

I think the new draft is better than the first. My opinions:

It's smart that the instant reversal button is out.

Now, you have to choose between the easy way to defend yourself (aka a block) or the more difficult one (evade), however the difficult one provides you with the ability to counter attack = reversal.

Of course, it's currently a very simple system but it will work a lot better than the Lugaru one, especially in weapon fights (which were reversal fights basicly until you found out how to trick the AI).

With the correct amount of attack move variety and resulting tactical freedom as well as the right balancing, this will be great.
Removing the block seems to be the wrong step to me, especially since it doesn't slow the gameplay down if executed correctly.
How about adding stamina to the fight? If you block an attack and the enemy tries to punch you again right away aka tries to do a combination, the following attacks would be slower than the inital one, making it easier to pull of a well timed evade.
Would make for brilliant cinematic fights and eliminates the slow nature of Lugaru's fight system. Don't get me wrong, it's real fun but every hit usually knocks your opponent down, slowing down the pace.
Again, I am not talking about adding some kind of stamina bar.

Just a litte system that prevents you from spamming the attack button and thus become invincible. (you know the Lord of the Rings - Return of the King game? as long as you punching the light attack button, nothing will ever hurt you)
Stamina BEHIND THE SCENES. If you spam the attack button and your opponent blocks you, your attacks become slower (including slowing down the animations), making it easier to evade and counter if you refuse to give your enemy the chance to attack himself
Same for the attacker of course.
Like boxing.
Or real sword fighting (now guess why I choose my nickname) !
It's possible to overwhelm your enemy with a furry of attacks but be successful with it, especially if you catch him of guard, he's tired or just not as good as you.
But a skilled fighter will take the heat, block you until you have to catch your breath and finish you with one strike.

I am actually more worried about the grabbing system. It sounds a bit like something in wrestling games. I fear struggleing in grabs might slow the gameplay, not blocking.
Am I right?



By the way, it's really awesome to track the development of this game in real time and being able to participate in it. I am in GameDesign (and active) but usually a different genre (despite my love for this one, the SpaceCombatSimulator Genre was my favorite since I was 4 years old ).
It's refreshing.

[Nail]

I think blocking would slow down the gameplay a bit too much, but I think wrestling would make suspenseful moments in fights. A parrying system would work better for Overgrowth.

[GaGrin]

I've been playing alot of KENGO 2 and my gut says that blocking is fine so long we have moves that break or ignore it.

Also - if you're putting block and grab on the same button, why not have GUARD and PARRY rather than just block? Blocking while holding the grab/defence button won't last and can be broken and you can be grabbed while in guard. If you wait and time your grab press to the attack you'll parry or throw as appropriate based on range. Parries would disrupt attacks like the dodges, but shouldn't mess with your opponents defence, while it would be nice if a dodged attack left you open for a moment.

Likewise - While holding the attack button should strike as per Lugaru, you still can potentially make judging the distance important by having the attacks automatic, but less damaging (or more easily blocked/countered) if they are telegraphed early (i.e. attack button held out of range and waiting).

I like the idea of a wrestling system - but the current one sounds a little fuzzy. Looking forward to the draft in anycase, but it's important to me that each move and counter-move is clear. I'm really excited to see how the clinch/counter-clinch evolves.

EDIT: Kengo 2 uses three buttons in a similar manner.
Offensive moves that take advantage of your opponent's stance
Defensive moves that take advantage of your opponent's strike
Offensive strikes

The offensive and defensive moves have all manner of parries, throws, kicks and binds - and vary strongly based on what move is being done, but are all activated by correct timing and a button press or two. Holding guard protects you from strikes, but makes you vulerable to certain offensive moves because it counts as a stance.

Its simple to control, but very indepth. Certainly recommend a look, if just for ideas for moves.

[GreenFlame]

I would like to ask: how would we be able to control characters and would we be able to use 2 weapons and shields? I also hope that someone would read following text:


I thinked that controls could look like so... but i dont think they are good:

=================================================================================
One Weapon:

Camera View --------------------------------Mouse
Movement------------------------------------W A S D
Change weapon------------------------------Mouse Wheel


Attack with Main weapon-------------------LMB

Non-lethal attack with Main weapon------Shift

Reverse/Stealth/Crouch -------------------RMB

Throw Main weapon-------------------------Q

Grab/Action----------------------------------F

Jump------------------------------------------Space
=================================================================================
Two Weapons / Weapon + Shield:

Camera View---------------------------------Mouse
Movement------------------------------------W A S D
Change weapon------------------------------Mouse Wheel


Attack with Main weapon-------------------LMB
Attack with Second weapon-----------------E+LMB

Non-lethal attack with Main weapon-------Shift
Non-lethal attack with Second weapon----E + Shift

Reverse/Stealth/Crouch -------------------RMB

Throw Main weapon-------------------------Q
Throw Second weapon----------------------E+Q

Grab/Action---------------------------------F

Jump-----------------------------------------Space
=================================================================================
Also
Long weapons:
Long Swords, Staffs, Spears, Halebards, Polyarms, Rabbit catchers, Hammers, Bows, Crossbows

Shields:
Shields, Bucklers

Middle length weapons:
Middle length Swords

Short weapons:
Daggers, Knives, Throwing Things

Limitations

Long weapons on back do not allow to:
Crouch
Jump in full force

Long weapons in hands not allow to:
Animal-style run
Jump in full force

Shields do not allow to:
Crouch
Jump in full force

Middle length weapons in hands not allow to:
Animal-style run
Jump in full force

And same for their combinations, like you can run and crouch with sword on back and dagger in hands, but if dagger is not in hands but sword is – you cannot run animal style. Then larger weapon / armor you use then less effective your jumps.
=================================================================================

So i also would like to be able to do such attack move like wepon drawing, like you hold "put out weapon" button - E in Lugaru. And while you hold weapon is out on 1/4, but when you release it then you make a quick weapon draw, with weapon like katana. I mean you pulling out and attacking enemy in one move.
I woul like long chains of counter attacks, espetially for knife battles, and may be if not Wolfire would make it - i hope animation editor would allow to do that ot fans =)
Also i wanna al the abilities of Lugaru would be too in Ovegrowth.

Big Thanks if you readed that =D
So what do you think about that?

[GaGrin]

I doubt we'll see shields at least for a good few iterations of the system - but the team have declared an interest in dual-weapon fighting.

From my experience I'd seriously suggest making the weapon use context based rather than complex combo based. If I have two weapons (and I include shields in this), one of them is covering defensively while the other threatens - it doesn't matter what those weapons are, or which hands they're in. Attacking with both weapons is awkward at worst and a waste of the dual-weapon advantage at best.

The single biggest advantage of dual-weapons is being able to simultaniously defend and attack, blocking or setting your opponents strike and landing a wounding/distracting or killing blow with the off-hand weapon (or vice-versa).

In terms of gameplay mechanics, I'd simply make parries and weapon-based counters easier with two weapons and give them more moves based on the relative reach of the pair of weapons (you should be striking/defending with the "best" weapon at any moment). If you want to get complex with weapons then you need some passive defence from simply being in a guard (which if you add shields should make fights last a good long while - but I expect shield mechanics are somewhat outside the remit of Overgrowth's scope).

[GreenFlame]

My English isn't good(sorry), so you mean that better if when you use dual weapons second weapon is defensive and replaces counterattack button, and if you press attack - your character decides himself which of weapons to use? =)

In Lugaru I liked that any combo you make is done from simple moves and you control each of them. Like to jump and throw knife you just press Jump, do a salto and press throw, instead of pressing one same button like in Dynasty Warriors(there is a combo where you pressing main attack button few times and then pressing second and you character jumps and then strikes, but you do not need to press jump button at all, just like "k k k j k j j").

I wanted shields for Knights, like they would be slow but very powerful and protected. I just thinked it would make game more interesting. But Wolfire done Lugaru and it went out great, so i think we will see something really amazing =)

I think it is good to attack by any weapon you like in any moment, and i think that LMB is for best for Main weapon, and RMB for second, but there are crouch, reverse and non lethal attacks... They all are better to be placed at RMB as i think, so problem in controls, I’ve thinked that to control second weapon you just should add "E" button...but it makes controls not so good %)... may be i just want too much %)

[GaGrin]

My English isn't good(sorry), so you mean that better if when you use dual weapons second weapon is defensive and replaces counterattack button, and if you press attack - your character decides himself which of weapons to use? =)

Yes, thats exactly what I mean. The weapon used is less important than the type of maneuvre, so if I press "attack" the best attack for my movement, distance and weapon should be performed. In reality these are instatanious and almost automatic decisions - so we really don't need to have seperate control over each hand so long as the move-set provides similar advantages.

In most cases having two weapons provides a distinct advantage over one, both defensively and offensively - but it would make grabs awkward or impossible, without dropping something.

EDIT:
I also think timing-based followup attacks could be a neat touch for certain weapons/situations. These would disrupt or pass blocks in a similar way to the combo-kill in Assassin's Creed, but generally be disruptive rather than instantly fatal.

A good example would be off-hand weapon attacks after a main-hand attack is blocked - this would be fluid and disrupt the defender, and better show the aggressive advantage of two weapons than having overly spinny-kicky moves that make no sense.

I'm all for cool moves, but I'd rather they're fluid and functional than flashy and pointless. One of the reasons I continue to load up the fighting games I do is they're all brutally honest about how fast fights end once the moves start getting thrown, and Lugaru is one of the best I've played at showing that.

[Nail]

I was thinking different weapons could cause different clinches. For example: you can hold a knife to someone's throat or a sword to someones back, but you can't do any clinches with a spear.

[Zantalos]

When weapons are equipped, I think having block as a toggle is a bad idea and would slow the game up. Like in Assassin's Creed you could just hold block and be invincible to all attacks but then enemies would eventually start using defense breakers that you couldn't counter and then what's the point, why doesn't the computer just always use that attack, they didn't.

Blocking is pretty difficult, so I think blocking should be like the Assassin's Creed counter move, because countering wasn't that hard to do in the game, but it wasn't automatic, you at least had to be involved, I just think it shouldn't have killed most enemies in one hit. Overgrowth will probably be much quicker, so a Mount and Blade approach would be a lot easier if it's too hard. Where you could block anytime when the enemy makes his move, rather than wait for the exact time that his blade makes contact with yours.

I agree that taking away the quick one button reversal move with weapons is a good idea. It could be implemented with a series of moves, like when you dodge or jump back from an enemy's attack he should be off balance for a little moment where you can either strike him hard or make a counter grapple and reverse move. Instead of dodging you could block the attack and make a counter with a bit lower chance of success since blocking an attack doesn't bring the opponent off balance, but it's easier to do. This would be more fun I think it, and harder than just hitting the shift key.

I think the unarmed game play should be much different than this though, more forgiving and open to variety, like how it looks like in the blog.

I think the major advantage for having two weapons is that you can attack at the same time, not just use one for a defense guard, though it is still very good for that, you might as well just use a shield because it covers better and can't be knocked out of your hand or pushed away by a strong attack. If you have two weapons vs someone with one weapon the general strategy is to attack him and when he blocks with his weapon you immediately attack his arm or a different part of his body with your other weapon. When he attacks, it's better to have a shield, but you can block and still be able to counter attack him at the same time.

I think dodging by tapping the movement key should be easy to do. Instead of like UFC 2009 where you have to perfectly flick your joystick back in order to take a quick step back. You should be able to pretty easily make Turner make a jump step back. And as long as the enemy doesn't hit you, he should be off balanced and ready for a counter whether you took a step back, to the side, rolled by him, jumped, or did a backwards cartwheel.

[GreenFlame]

From one side controlling of two weapons make you more powerful, but from other side it is harder to control two weapons, so i've thinked that it is more realistic and makes sense.
But it makes Overgrowth controls not simple and not good for fast fights...

So i hope to see fights like in "Samurai X", also would be good to see knights and ballistas and may be it is good to load arrows/bolts by mouse wheel? =)
I hope my PC would run it well =D

[GaGrin]

Blocking isn't that difficult. Infact, if you're facing off against a single opponent and aren't distracted its fairly easy because you have to move your weapon less than your opponent (who has to telegraph his move in most cases, giving you time to react).

The biggest killer against blocking is thrusts, which are extremely quick and have very little "wind up" so are hard to spot before they occur. They are also much harder to block because you can't simply place your weapon in the path, you need to set the weapon aside which is a much more complex shape and easy to mess up if you have to move suddenly.

Talking from experience, I can tell you that having an off-hand weapon like a parrying dagger doesn't interfer with your main-hand weapon (say a cut&thrust style sword) at all. AT ALL. It does prevent you from doing some particular counters and throws, but I was only taught a few basic ones anyway, and it opens up more options for blocks and off-hand attacks anyway.

From the clinch I expect headbutts, knee and elbow strikes, bites and stomping are the sort of moves well see, with potentially chokes for the advantage. (Not expecting all of these - but this sort of thing). If a weapon is involved during the clinch I'd expect it either to be involved in a hook and/or throw, or availible for pommel-strikes for mid-sized weapons. Knives/daggers are probably the only weapon you'd be able to use effectively in a grapple - which is one thing that should make them fairly deadly.

EDIT:
Check out some real longsword techniques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y&NR=1

[Swordarm]

blocking is much easier than evading and it should be in the game

[mryuck]

False. Evading or dodging an attack is much easier then blocking it.

[TheBigCheese]

False. Evading or dodging an attack is much easier then blocking it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with this one.

Though, in terms of gameplay, I believe blocking should be made easier than dodging, as dodging would allow a counter-attack to follow.

But then, if you can dodge, why would you ever block? Even if dodging is harder, most people will recognize that it is the more effective technique and mostly ignore blocking.

[Zantalos]

Blocking isn't that difficult. Infact, if you're facing off against a single opponent and aren't distracted its fairly easy because you have to move your weapon less than your opponent (who has to telegraph his move in most cases, giving you time to react).

The biggest killer against blocking is thrusts, which are extremely quick and have very little "wind up" so are hard to spot before they occur. They are also much harder to block because you can't simply place your weapon in the path, you need to set the weapon aside which is a much more complex shape and easy to mess up if you have to move suddenly.

Talking from experience, I can tell you that having an off-hand weapon like a parrying dagger doesn't interfer with your main-hand weapon (say a cut&thrust style sword) at all. AT ALL. It does prevent you from doing some particular counters and throws, but I was only taught a few basic ones anyway, and it opens up more options for blocks and off-hand attacks anyway.

From the clinch I expect headbutts, knee and elbow strikes, bites and stomping are the sort of moves well see, with potentially chokes for the advantage. (Not expecting all of these - but this sort of thing). If a weapon is involved during the clinch I'd expect it either to be involved in a hook and/or throw, or availible for pommel-strikes for mid-sized weapons. Knives/daggers are probably the only weapon you'd be able to use effectively in a grapple - which is one thing that should make them fairly deadly.

EDIT:
Check out some real longsword techniques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y&NR=1

I am also talking with experience, but I don't use real swords and pretend to hit people in slo motion. Hahaha I use pretend swords and hit people in fast motion.

In my opinion blocking is difficult, like half of the moves in your demo video showed how easy it is to hit an opponent trying to block your attack. If blocking was easy, non of those moves would work because you would just keep blocking the next attack. And with a two-handed sword, it should be even easier to block since there's a lot less moves that can be thrown, and still the guy is getting hit. In my opinion it assumes that blocking is hard in real life, not easy, so he can't block all the attacks. This is just slow-motion, okay the sword is slowly going this way, I'll just quickly move this way and block, that's just not the way it works. Maybe the guy will block the first, but that's because the other guy is aiming for his weapon to knock it away and when he attacks for real he's not going to be able to block. To block you have to recognize if it's a strike moving from up high, diagonally, or to the side or from the underhand, any direction, or a stab that also isn't always going to be aimed at center mass, it could go for face, chest, belly, legs, arm. It's not like Mount and Blade where you got a full second to react because the guy is telegraphing his move by charging his weapon up in different stances and then striking at just one location, all these attacks happen in an instant and can start with the same exact stance with no telegraphing at all but instead feints to throw you off until he actually attacks. Also, he's got a ton of power behind his shot so it's not enough to just get your weapon in front of his and assume you'll stop it, because he'll go right through your block, it's got to be clean.

I think it is a lot easier to dodge, but then like in Lugaru, after you dodge you have to close the distance to attack again and by then the advantage is lost. In the overgrowth fight document, it would be cool if dodging isn't easy and just taking a huge cartwheel backwards, but has some options like a poor dodge where you get out of the way and a perfectly timed dodge that gives you the opportunity to counter attack.