A Gunsmith's Analysis (Updated for RC7)

The place to discuss all things Receiver.
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Katemonster
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Re: A Gunsmith's Perspective

Post by Katemonster » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:26 pm

Hi orlok, and thanks. :]

The awkward thing about the C/96 Broomhandle is that there's no mechanical device to hold the bolt open. The bolt stays open on the last shot, but only because the face of the bolt hits the back of the magazine follower. When you stick the stripper clip in and start pushing cartridges down into the magazine, the follower lets go of the bolt and the bolt instead hits the back of the clip. As soon as you pull the clip out, the bolt slams shut.

So, if you want to reload and you don't have any stripper clips, you have to hold the bolt back with one hand while pushing cartridges into the magazine with the other. This is difficult and awkward as hell.

The Schnellfeuer and other detachable magazine versions/clones of the C/96 are very rare too. If they didn't want to add the Glock 18 on the basis of rarity, I certainly wouldn't add the Schnellfeuer. At that point you have another semiauto pistol with a detachable magazine, which at this point adds nothing interesting to the game.

Tracer ammo for handguns exists but it's both uncommon and rather low-quality novelty stuff.

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Last edited by Katemonster on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

KaletheQuick
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Re: A Gunsmith's Perspective

Post by KaletheQuick » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:52 pm

I love this thread.

Joined just to say that. Also that it is great to see a game showing guns as items that actually take a bit of thought :)

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zzwerty
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Re: A Gunsmith's Perspective

Post by zzwerty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:16 am

I've seen those weird purple blobs many times. Very odd, couldn't think what it would be caused by. Makes pretty good cover though!

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Aleph
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Re: A Gunsmith's Perspective

Post by Aleph » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Great post. Apparently David is working on something related to the things you mentioned (here and here.)

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Katemonster
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RC7 Update

Post by Katemonster » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:02 pm

Thanks Aleph. :] I like your username by the way, I'm kind of into languages and character sets.

Receiver RC7 Update:

I went over the new update and torture-tested the guns again. I know it was a very small update and didn't touch very many things, I figure the floating-cartridge issue is something that's being left for later, but the press-check change did uncover a couple other odd behaviors I feel compelled to point out.

• The press-check function is really cool. :D The one thing I wanted to say about it is that you should only be able to see the brass case, not the bullet itself which should still be inside the chamber BUT I'm thinking this is a modeling issue above anything else; since the animation doesn't showing the barrel moving back with the slide, the chamber mouth is a bit further forward than it ought to be. A lazy way to fix that without animating the barrel would be to simply make the breech-end be modeled further back, make the barrel longer inside the gun than it really is. The Glock doesn't do this, it's displayed more-or-less correctly.

• The slide on the 1911 should go a little bit further back in the fully-retracted/locked-open position. The Glock looks good; I know modeling is something that wasn't really touched, but it looks like the latching notch was moved a bit further back, yeah? Or my imagination is playing tricks on me... :|

• So, the 1911 and Glock both still do the floating shell thing where locking the slide open, inserting and immediately removing a loaded magazine will leave a shell floating in the feedway. I assume that's something that just hasn't been touched on yet, but it uncovered another weird behavior since the way (R) and (T) work has been changed. Lock the slide open and insert a magazine with only a single cartridge in it; now that the game considers that cartridge to be in the pistol rather than the magazine, the magazine is "empty" and you can't release the slide by tapping (R).

• While playing around with the Glock (Guns are not toys! Bad Katemonster!) I still had it eject shells from the magazine while trying to release the slide with (R). This happened a few times in a row but then I haven't been able to duplicate the problem since then, so I'm not sure what the conditions were on that. Otherwise, (R) to release worked flawlessly the way it should. However, if you start with the gun locked-open and a loaded magazine inserted, and your first move is to hit (R) to release the slide, it will eject a round from the mag.

• The safety lever now functions correctly (besides animation but I'm sure that will get fixed later,) but it's still possible to start the game with the hammer decocked and the safety on.

Edit: Oh, I noticed you fixed the magazine capacity on the 1911 too, that's cool. :]

Edit #2: Doh. I just now saw that you created a public changelog.

That's it. It looks good otherwise. :]

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Last edited by Katemonster on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Anton
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Re: RC7 Update

Post by Anton » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:59 am

Katemonster wrote:• While playing around with the Glock (Guns are not toys! Bad Katemonster!) I still had it eject shells from the magazine while trying to release the slide with (R). This happened a few times in a row but then I haven't been able to duplicate the problem since then, so I'm not sure what the conditions were on that. Otherwise, (R) to release worked flawlessly the way it should. However, if you start with the gun locked-open and a loaded magazine inserted, and your first move is to hit (R) to release the slide, it will eject a round from the mag.
(T) is assigned to release the slide lock, not (R)... if that makes a difference.

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Katemonster
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Re: A Gunsmith's Perspective (Updated for RC7)

Post by Katemonster » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:22 am

Three different people have told me that I'm wrong about (R) tonight, so I'm going to try to clear this up.

Image

Image

Image

First, the hold-open lever has a rebound spring trying to pull and hold it downward. The only thing keeping it holding the slide open is the massive* amount of forward pressure the slide is putting on it. Pulling the slide back slightly releases that pressure, allowing the lever to snap back down and the slide to close. You can release the slide either by pushing down on the hold-open lever, which would be (T) in the game, or by pulling the slide back away from the lever, which would be (R).

Second, we aren't talking about a cartridge being ejected that is on the slide breechface. Some people seem to be under the impression that a cartridge can be on the breechface and held by the extractor claw while the slide is locked open, and that tugging the slide back would then cause that cartridge to eject. That's not even possible, since the ejector is way forward of the breechface when the slide is locked open, and the difference between the locked-open position and the fully-rearward position is only about 1/8"-1/4" on just about any pistol design.

We are talking about a cartridge that is inside the magazine, below the mag's feed lips, below the extractor claw, and below and well behind the ejector. The first photo above shows the gun's state I'm talking about when you start the game. Releasing the slide by tapping (R) should NOT be ejecting a cartridge.

*The first time a person picks up a handgun, the first thing they generally notice and are surprised by is how heavy they are. Well, they are made mostly of steel, and even a plastic-framed pistol like a Glock has a decent amount of heft to it. The second thing you notice, if you pull back the slide on a semiauto pistol, is that the recoil spring is really powerful. Getting your fingers slammed in an ejection port is not a fun time.

--Katemonster

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Katemonster
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by Katemonster » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:16 am

Other Suggestions for New Guns

Having trouble sleeping and my mind is going berserk, so I figured I'd get up and do something useful. Since I have nothing useful to do, I'll do something interesting instead. Here's some other suggestions I thought of for weapons that could be added to Receiver at a much later date:

First: Modified Winchester Model 1892 - "Mare's Leg"
Caliber: .44-40 WCF
What makes it interesting:
This is a lever-action rifle design that has been modified into something legally considered a handgun. It has similar usage characteristics to the AOW pump shotgun I suggested earlier in the sense that it has a fixed, tubular magazine and must be manually cycled between shots, however it fires a more conventional (by the game's standards) rifle/pistol cartridge. Modern replicas are kind of popular with the Cowboy Action crowd.

Image

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Second, if the fall- and drop-safety considerations I suggested earlier are ever implemented, I think it would be interesting to round out the selection of conventional semiautomatic pistols. The game has a SA pistol (1911) and a DAO pistol (Glock), so I think it would be worth adding a DA/SA pistol with a decocking lever (which eliminates the need to decock the hammer with your thumb while pulling the trigger.) Here are five suggestions on common pistols that fit the bill; just pick one and run with it:
[+] Click to expand list
Beretta 92 Family (92FS, M9, 96)
Calibers: 9mm Luger or .40 S&W
Magazine Capacity: 15 (9mm) or 12 (.40 S&W)

(Combination safety and decocking lever.)
A popular law enforcement pistol during the 1980's and 1990's. The M9 is the standard service sidearm of the United States armed forces.

Image

SIG-Sauer P226
Calibers: 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, or .357 SIG
Magazine Capacity: 15 (9mm) or 13 (.40 S&W, .357 SIG)

(Decocking lever only, no manual safety.)
Another popular law enforcement pistol, the P226 serves with many US government agencies including the FBI.

Image

Ruger P-85, P-89, or P-90
Calibers: 9mm Luger, .30 Luger, or .45 ACP
Magazine Capacity: 15 (9mm, .30 cal) or 8 (.45 ACP)

(Available with either combination safety/decocking lever, or with decocking function only.)
The P-85 was a contender against the Beretta 92F to become the new US service sidearm, and it's Katemonster's opinion that the Ruger would have been the better choice. These are fairly popular in civilian circles.

Image

Smith & Wesson Model 1076
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Magazine Capacity: 9

(Decocking lever only, no manual safety.)
The S&W Model 1076 is significantly more powerful than any other pistol on this short list. It used to be the standard service sidearm of the FBI until continual complaints about recoil lead to the development and adoption of the .40 S&W cartridge.

Image

Heckler & Koch Mk.23
Caliber: .45 ACP
Magazine Capacity: 12

(Decocking lever and separate 1911-style safety lever. Probably the most mechanically interesting/least straightforward design on the list.)
The Mk.23 was developed at the request of US Special Operations Command and is an extremely high quality pistol, but is not well liked due to being the size of a two-bedroom apartment. It and the 1076 are the rarest of the pistols on this list. Also guaranteed to bring out all the airsoft geeks and Metal Gear Solid fanatics*.

Image

*Katemonster may or may not in fact be a Metal Gear Solid fanatic.
--Katemonster

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orlok
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by orlok » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:56 am

Hello there

I like the sound of the "mares leg" It's different enough from the norm to be interesting.

I'll throw another at you, how about the 1950's Witney Wolverine? it's unique looks and again differing handling make it a fave for me (i'm still upset about my beloved mauser. :) )

Rarity isn't really an issue IMHO as the game is mainly about the manipulation of the weapons.

It's great the dev's are taking notice of you, Kudos!

Lastly, you can download the uncompiled game from the github and view the models in your 3d viewer of choice as they use the FBX standard, A close look at them might give you more ideas of how they can be worked up to more resemble the real weapon.

If you have no 3d experience, I'll happilly render them up and post the images her for you to peek at.

rgds

LoK

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Katemonster
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by Katemonster » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:54 pm

Hey, I never said the C/96 couldn't be added, it would just be awkward to use. Not worse than the Garand M1 though. There's not necessarily anything wrong with the Wolverine, but I don't know how useful a .22 LR pistol would be against these robots; that's quite a bit underpowered, and way more likely to misfire (if misfires get implemented, and because of the ammunition, not the gun.)

Man, I just can't please you, can I? Sorry. :P

I said in my introduction that I would mention the worst, most horrifyingly complicated weapons you could add to the game, just for amusement... the Garand is one of those, so I'll go over that now I guess. :D

------------------------------

John Garand's Springfield M1
Caliber: .30-06 Springfield Gov't


Image

The Garand is fast and easy to reload due to the en-bloc clip system. Pull the bolt back with (R) and it automatically locks open, then press (Z) to stuff an entire loaded clip down into the magazine and the bolt will automatically slam shut and the gun is ready to fire (barring the safety being on.) In real life, you have to be careful about that; you gotta hold the bolt open while you stick the clip in, or it'll slam shut on your thumb. There's a random chance (actually really likely if the clip is in good condition) that the bolt won't instantly close due to how tightly the clip is holding onto the ammunition; if that happens, just kick it closed with (T). After you fire the last shot, the bolt will lock open and the clip is automatically ejected (with a very distinct sound.) Just jam in another clip with (Z) and the gun is ready to fire again.

Sounds sweet and easy, right? The problem is that the Garand's magazine (totally not Garand's fault, it's Pedersen's design and the Army demanded it) is completely dependent upon the en-bloc clip to function at all. The clip cannot be partially loaded, it must be fully stacked with eight cartridges. If you don't have enough ammo to completely fill up a clip, the loading function works something like this:

• Lock bolt to the rear if not already done so and hold it there (hold R).
• While holding bolt open with one hand, insert empty clip into magazine with other hand (X? I don't know) and hold it in place. An empty clip will not stay in the gun on its own.
• While holding the bolt back with one hand (R) and the clip in with the other (X), use your telekinetic powers to press a single cartridge into the magazine with (Z). This may or may not cause problems with keyboard ghosting.
• Now that there is a round in the mag, you may release pressure on the clip but must continue holding back on the bolt until done loading.
• Insert cartridges into magazine until loaded to satisfaction. Note that you can only load 7 rounds this way. However, if you have at least 8 rounds and a clip, why are you doing it this way?
• Release (R) to close bolt. You are now ready to fire.

If you don't have any clips, the magazine is completely unusable and you have a single-shot rifle. To unload, retract and hold bolt and press clip release button by performing (R* -> E), which will eject an empty clip and a handful of loose cartridges straight upward. Then throw the rifle out of frustration and quit the game.

--Katemonster

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Last edited by Katemonster on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

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orlok
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by orlok » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:47 pm

Hello there

I'm notoriously hard to please :)

I think gloriously complex to use weapons, for me, are the way forward, as you'll really have to plan your combat ahead of time, rather than do the Call of Duty Pray and spray playstyle. But I'm a bit of a masochist like that.

Really interesting info on the Garand btw. I love hearing about a weapons foibles as it debunks the Hollywood myth of gun handling.

I agree that the .22 is considered as a "plinkers" fun round and may not be useful in a life or death situation but it's the thought of "owning" these weapons and having them function as near as dammit as they do in real life a massive draw for me.

Gun ownership is notoriously difficult in the UK so this is as close as I can now get. (and probably a lot safer for me:))

Also, I hope you don't mind me cluttering up your thread with my uninformed whafflings.

Lastly, although it doesn't fit into the game per se it would be great to see a game advocating safe gun handling. Watching youtube for example often has me cringing.

Rgds

LoK

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Katemonster
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by Katemonster » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:05 pm

Hah, no problem. :] I went and made a table of contents on the first post so everything important is hotlinked together.

That kind of thing appeals to me too, I wouldn't mind using it, but I think a lot of players are already a bit overwhelmed by the current weapons, which aren't particularly complex (at least in my opinion/by my standards.) If gun-plugin modding is made a thing, I will probably spend all of my free time making guns for the game, no matter how redundant they are. The handguns I'd like to play with are the Coonan Classic or the STI Perfect 10, which are both just exotic variations on the 1911.

Yeah, the UK is kind of frustrating, and I feel for you there. :\ You do occasionally run into some interesting pieces under those conditions though. I have a friend over your way who has a British Service M1911 chambered for .455 Webley; that thing is pretty sweet.

And yeah, I'm plugging for safety being a concern in Receiver. The drop- and fall-safety stuff I'd very much like to see implemented. I'm sure it won't be for a long time though, if ever. Overgrowth takes priority, as it should.

--Katemonster

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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by Zamza » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:54 am

I feel really out of place, being a relative newcomer to the fascinating world of well-designed firearms. That said, I think it would be cool to have a button for wiping your hand over the back of the gun. It would be used on the semi-auto pistols for clearing a jammed casing as you mentioned earlier, but the real motivation would be to shoot the revolvers like a wild west guy, flicking the hammer with the trigger held down. Pow pow pow!

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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by BunnyBlu » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:54 am

Katemonster, dont want to sound like im trolling you or anything like that, but on the subject of various firearm legality, to the best of my knowledge (I live in texas) I can go to a rather large number of gun stores and with a sufficently clean background, enough money, and enough patience I can get automatics and/or AOWs (not entirely sure if the ATF views those as the same or not) I only ask because many of the supposed "informed" types of ppl ive talked to on these sorts of subjects have rather blatantly lied to my face about it (for example, ex military friend of mine says that tracer and ball type ammunition are illegal for civilian purchase, which is funny cause they sell milsurp tracer 5.56 in their original ammo cans at Gander Mountain) Also what do you know about the legality of sound supressors for civilians?

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orlok
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Re: A Gunsmith's Critique (Updated for RC7)

Post by orlok » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:18 pm

Hello there

Do the laws not violently differ state to state? This is what I have been led to believe.

Rgds

LoK

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