Wolfire Games Forums

castiglione wrote:Errr...gun drones?

Are there plans to put them in?

And what decoy drones?

He's talking about some stuff from earlier in the thread. Josh was messing around with adding mobile gun drones. (Basically flying drones with their tasers replaced with guns.) You can find a couple in the shooting range on the current update, they don't spawn in the actual game though, as they're just very basic prototype tests.

Saladofstones suggested earlier the idea of a "dummy" drone that emits a sound that blocks out the sounds of other drones, since a lot of the gameplay in Receiver (such as knowing when you've been spotted) is based on audio cues.

Josh707 wrote:Yeah, it's fun to just mess around with the values. I made a bit of progress yesterday with penetration, I've gotten it to take velocity and angle into account for depth so now it acts a little more realistic, but should use mass as well. The values still need tweaking but it's getting there, in real life the penetration takes the metal deformation into account as well so I can't make it completely realistic, and I'm not sure just how far certain calibers can penetrate this metal, especially 12 gauge buckshot...

Wow, really digging the visuals you provide with Unity's functions. Picture's worth a thousand words and all that.

Well, regarding penetration ability, we can, for the simplicity of gathering real world data, say that the drones' shells are all constructed of sheets of stainless steel. And to provide for a minimum effectiveness, we have the M1911, with it's .45 ACP round, which has terrible penetration characteristics. As I recall, a military test sometime in the late 40s showed that .45 ACP had trouble penetrating a M1 steel helmet at 35 yards (~30m). An M1 steel helmet is a little thicker than 1mm thick at its thickest point at the front, but is made from Hadfield steel, which is very impact resistant. So perhaps wager a guess that it can penetrate 2mm at the closer ranges of Receiver with a softer stainless steel shell. (Lesson of the day: in the event of the Terminator apocalypse, don't use .45 ACP) So let's just say that the drones all have 2mm thick stainless steel shells, and that .45 ACP can hit at a 90 degree angle and make it a quarter of the way through the turret's base with enough energy to destroy a vital.

Also recalling this from memory (so I might be off), but I think 9mm Para can penetrate stainless steel plates of 4mm from much farther than 30 yards. And on top of that, it tends to stay as a single projectile instead of fragmenting when doing so. So let's just say at a 90 degree angle, it punches halfway through the base. (Unless stopped by a vital part)

7.62 Tokarev ought to be a little better at penetrating than 9mm, I think. So maybe more than half. .38 Special, which the S&W Victory Model 10 uses fared better than the .45 ACP in the same helmet test I mentioned, so maybe a third of the distance to the center. A full size rifle round, for whatever model you put on the bolt action, ought to rip through the entire thing.

I'm not sure that mass and velocity can quite comprehensively model bullets. Treating them like point masses doesn't take into account their shape (such as diameter) and ability to deform.

Might be getting too nitpicky about the damage model though. In any case, I hope some of this helps you with what you end up making!

EDIT: Left out buckshot. I believe 00 buckshot, (depending a lot of the hardness of the shot used), has even worse penetration than .45 ACP. But perhaps that could be a balancing factor that possibly makes the game more interesting - shotguns could tend to only damage some more exposed parts (like the gun turret), rather than devastate the entire drone in one hit. Just a suggestion though.

On that note, could you possible add some color to the front or the back of the turret's base? I've known the battery is located at the larger back end for some time now, but from a distance it's impossible to tell. As it is now, I just shoot at the base and see what happens, rather than think about the need to hit from a different position.

One thing, why not make a boolean variable to automatically put in the 2 handed part using an If statement?

Something like IsTwoHanded = 1 to automatically merge the parts of it being a one handed or two handed weapon from a script file in the game, so that weapons with:
IsTwoHanded = 0
Suffer from higher recoil, more weapon sway, but can use flashlights

IsTwoHanded = 1
Have less recoil and less weapon sway, but cannot use flashlights and are closer to the face by default.


That way, if you wanted to add some more interesting parts, after that line, you could simply add variables to override the previous automatically set statements, for example having a rifle with a flashlight rig still make it possible to set a flashlight to the weapon.

Just saying, I have little experience with the code you are using but it might make things a little easier if all you have to do is enter a true or false, not having to chase through the entire script to edit a W.I.P. weapon's behaviour.

Finally encountered the gun drone on the firing range.

That thing is quite scary.

If they're put back into Receiver, I would suggest making them fairly rare.

Having that thing fly at you while it's spewing bullets isn't a very pleasant experience.

lamekupo wrote:*bullet stuff*

Oh it's not too nitpicky, it'll help for sure, the .45 and 7.62x25 bullets are already behaving similar to what you've described but I wasn't sure how the rest performed in real life. I'll spend some time tweaking the values and get them roughly to what you've described, thanks a lot for the info!

I found the formula:

0.5 x grain weight x velocity^2 / 7000 / 32.175

From this kinetic energy calculator for bullets, for calculating the impact force exerted on the robots. At first I wasn't sure if it was what I was looking for as I've forgotten most of my high school physics but Wikipedia and the results seem to be promising, the .45 at 251m/s is now hitting harder than the 7.62 if I supply it real-world values.

I thought shape would need to be included for penetration as well but that's just another number to increase or reduce the number that's calculated, I can just change the bullets mass or have another variable for that. I also added a random modifier so bullets that all hit at the same angle will all have slightly different depth.

I was messing around with the penetration earlier and took out the random lucky shot chance and it's pretty fun, rather than just shooting at the entire robot to take it out you have to aim for vital parts, but the drones armor is really good at deflecting shots when it's flying toward you. I think I'll keep the lucky shot chance but have it reduced. The drone's big round rotor covers are really good at blocking bullets so it's almost needed.

lamekupo wrote:EDIT: Left out buckshot. I believe 00 buckshot, (depending a lot of the hardness of the shot used), has even worse penetration than .45 ACP. But perhaps that could be a balancing factor that possibly makes the game more interesting - shotguns could tend to only damage some more exposed parts (like the gun turret), rather than devastate the entire drone in one hit. Just a suggestion though.

Yeah that's currently how it's working right now, they barely which can just simulate the metal deforming a tiny bit or internal circuitry getting smacked around and stuff coming loose. Since the shots lose velocity a lot faster than bullets they will perform considerably worse at a distance.

lamekupo wrote:On that note, could you possible add some color to the front or the back of the turret's base? I've known the battery is located at the larger back end for some time now, but from a distance it's impossible to tell. As it is now, I just shoot at the base and see what happens, rather than think about the need to hit from a different position.

I actually don't think so, I'll take a look again but Wolfire seems to have a different method of texturing some of their models using colors that are built in to the models, the materials for some objects are using a custom vertex data shader with no texture. One way to roughly guess the direction (if you're not too far away) is by the distance between the legs and the direction of the slanted top of the base, if you take a look at this picture again. If there is a texture I can modify though I can possibly make the back end a little brighter or something, or maybe attach a model of an exhaust fan or something for the motor?

Davidos wrote:*one/two handed stuff*

Yeah that is a good idea, it's best to automate things that like so you don't miss small things, although the flashlight usage depends on like 3 if statements. I have an enum for one or two handed but it's only used for footstep "recoil" right now, I guess it would be a lot simpler to have the flashlight rely on that as well. The distance from the face is all in the prefab though, so I can position each gun exactly how I want.

castiglione wrote:Finally encountered the gun drone on the firing range.

That thing is quite scary.

If they're put back into Receiver, I would suggest making them fairly rare.

Having that thing fly at you while it's spewing bullets isn't a very pleasant experience.

That was the plan! Each level tile generated has a random difficulty that affects the amount of robots that will spawn, so it would only be for the highest difficulty rooms.

I personally doubt that the frames of the UAV killdrones are made entirely out of steel, or entirely out of metal for that matter, mainly because of weight saving, they need to be as light as possible so they can fly around without forcing the propellor engine too much.
The gun turret killdrones, on the other hand, they can be made of steel and other hard materials, but they should't be too heavy aswell because that would make their rotation motion more sluggish. I'll say, the gun turrets are OK with their current values.

Yeah, whatever it's made of it's not very thick, I'm not sure about the middle but the armor on the camera and shock prod is really thin.
They'll still be disabled pretty much any time they get hit, the whole drone is small enough that most penetrating shots will be able to hit vital parts too, as long as you don't hit those rotor covers. I wouldn't really give it's material a name, it'll still react to bullets roughly the same as before but slightly different with each.

Downloaded the new update today. I quite like the bolt action rifle even though it's almost to hard to use for it to ever be really effective, though it's still fun. Still haven't managed to find a gun drone though .

While on the topic of the gun range I managed to get stuck in the open box on the floor somehow >.> ... Another thing with the gun range is how about adding a large quantity of ammo or some kind of ammo dispenser so you don't have to respawn when you run out of ammo.

The last thing here is kind of a question. Would it possible to make dash toggleable? Like by holding shift you sprint rather than spamming W. This would just be a simpler way of dashing because right now I feel like I'm going to break the key if I sprint to much. But if it's not an easy thing to code don't worry about it, it's really just a convenience thing.

jackthearcher wrote:Downloaded the new update today. I quite like the bolt action rifle even though it's almost to hard to use for it to ever be really effective, though it's still fun. Still haven't managed to find a gun drone though .

While on the topic of the gun range I managed to get stuck in the open box on the floor somehow >.> ... Another thing with the gun range is how about adding a large quantity of ammo or some kind of ammo dispenser so you don't have to respawn when you run out of ammo.

The last thing here is kind of a question. Would it possible to make dash toggleable? Like by holding shift you sprint rather than spamming W. This would just be a simpler way of dashing because right now I feel like I'm going to break the key if I sprint to much. But if it's not an easy thing to code don't worry about it, it's really just a convenience thing.

Yeah, the rifle doesn't really seem to be that effective but it's still fun to use, I'm gonna use a different model though. That box is pretty much a death trap, I guess I should make it a little smaller...
Someone else asked for a pile of bullets but a dispenser would be better, I don't have a model I could use for it but it wouldn't be hard to script. I'll keep it written down cause I want to finish some other things first.

I don't know about the running, you'd have to have a set speed for it and you're not really supposed to sprint everywhere. I'll keep it written down as well, maybe have a button in the options menu to turn it on and off.

The bolt-action rifle looks good so far. With such a slow rate of fire it doesn't leave much room for error but it's an enjoyable addition.

And if you are short on ideas in the future let me share my recent fascination with multiple barrel firearms.

The first is the Cop Derringer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COP_357_Derringer

[+] Derringer

A simple break-open 4-shot pistol chambered for .357 rounds. If that isn't interesting enough it could be loaded with Quad custom ammo.

[+] Quad Custom

Bullets lined end-to-end seem silly but each projectile generally doesn't stray far from the projected path of a normal bullet. Four shots of four bullets doesn't seem like a bad deal, no?

Next is the Henrion, Dassy & Heuschen double-barrel revolver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrion,_D ... n_Revolver

[+] Revolver Open

A single cylinder with 2 rings of 8 cartridges each feeding a different barrel. Gameplay-wise I don't think it would differ that much from the S&W outside the capacity and ballistics but it's certainly interesting.

There is also a derivative called the Ludovici revolver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovici_revolver
I'm not sure if this one was ever built because the only images I can find of it are its patent.

[+] Patent

It had six sets of three chambers arranged in a triangle pattern the would fire simultaneously from three barrels in the same formation. 18 shots from 6 trigger pulls. Crazy, right? Considering that it fired .22LRs it probably wouldn't be too effective against Receiver's armored enemies but I'll be damned if that doesn't bring something new to the table.

anAngryHamster wrote:The bolt-action rifle looks good so far. With such a slow rate of fire it doesn't leave much room for error but it's an enjoyable addition.

Yeah, not really effective for robots but it is fun to use!

anAngryHamster wrote:And if you are short on ideas in the future let me share my recent fascination with multiple barrel firearms.

Haha okay! :D

anAngryHamster wrote:The first is the Cop Derringer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COP_357_Derringer

[+] Derringer

A simple break-open 4-shot pistol chambered for .357 rounds. If that isn't interesting enough it could be loaded with Quad custom ammo.

[+] Quad Custom

Bullets lined end-to-end seem silly but each projectile generally doesn't stray far from the projected path of a normal bullet. Four shots of four bullets doesn't seem like a bad deal, no?

That's actually really cool, I knew of that gun before but nothing of that custom ammo. It'd be simple to fire 4 bullets but I think that'd just be overkill unless I make them really light, otherwise they'd send a drone flying away. I'd really enjoy something like that in Receiver though, really good suggestion.

anAngryHamster wrote:Next is the Henrion, Dassy & Heuschen double-barrel revolver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrion,_D ... n_Revolver

[+] Revolver Open

A single cylinder with 2 rings of 8 cartridges each feeding a different barrel. Gameplay-wise I don't think it would differ that much from the S&W outside the capacity and ballistics but it's certainly interesting.

There is also a derivative called the Ludovici revolver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovici_revolver
I'm not sure if this one was ever built because the only images I can find of it are its patent.

[+] Patent

It had six sets of three chambers arranged in a triangle pattern the would fire simultaneously from three barrels in the same formation. 18 shots from 6 trigger pulls. Crazy, right? Considering that it fired .22LRs it probably wouldn't be too effective against Receiver's armored enemies but I'll be damned if that doesn't bring something new to the table.

Hahaha wow that's a pretty weird revolver. The way it opens is a little weird too, I don't know how you'd load it without having to turn it around or awkwardly move your hand. Receiver could definitely do with some 'exotic' firearms, but I don't think there's any models of a gun similar to this and I certainly couldn't model that! Another good suggestion though.

anAngryHamster wrote: There is also a derivative called the Ludovici revolver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovici_revolver
I'm not sure if this one was ever built because the only images I can find of it are its patent.

[+] Patent

It had six sets of three chambers arranged in a triangle pattern the would fire simultaneously from three barrels in the same formation. 18 shots from 6 trigger pulls. Crazy, right? Considering that it fired .22LRs it probably wouldn't be too effective against Receiver's armored enemies but I'll be damned if that doesn't bring something new to the table.

It was indeed constructed, at least once. http://www.horstheld.com/0-Spain.htm I have also had somewhat of a preoccupation with volley guns, and would love to see some properly implemented in receiver. I've already modified the revolver into a six-barrel version, as you can see at viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19037#p202015. It fires from the appropriate barrel:cylinder and everything, and a modification to ludovici operation would probably not be much more difficult.

Josh707 wrote:It'd be simple to fire 4 bullets but I think that'd just be overkill unless I make them really light, otherwise they'd send a drone flying away. I'd really enjoy something like that in Receiver though, really good suggestion.

I can confirm for you that even six standard .38 bullets don't really send the bot flying, just sometimes knocks it over (pivoting around two legs). And even then you have to aim high up on its gun to get the effect, and it remains a threat if not properly disabled (will still locate and fire on you even knocked on its head).

Oh yeah, I was thinking with the changes I've made, I've changed the impact force code so that it uses the bullet's grain weight I supply it as well as velocity, 'cause changing each calibers velocity really skewed the impact force. The original calculation was just 'velocity * 0.01', but I'm using '0.5 * grain_weight * velocity^2 / 7000 * 2.2 / 32.175' (7000 converts grains to pounds, 32.175 is acceleration due to gravity, although I might be changing this as Unity doesn't actually have a unit of measurement). It gives pretty good values when I give each bullet their proper weights, from what someone has said on here about the .45 hitting harder than the 7.62x25 even though the 7.62 is almost twice as fast, it turned out pretty much the same in Receiver with real-world values. I'm not sure how it would turn out in my project though, like I don't know how much those 4 bullets weigh or the initial velocity of that gun and caliber either.

Edit:

jackthearcher wrote:Another thing with the gun range is how about adding a large quantity of ammo or some kind of ammo dispenser so you don't have to respawn when you run out of ammo

I already responded to your post but I figured I should let you know there's already some cheats that Wolfire put in their release. One is typing IDKFA which refills the loose bullets at the top of your screen, so you can just use that for now.

Josh707 wrote:Oh yeah, I was thinking with the changes I've made, I've changed the impact force code so that it uses the bullet's grain weight I supply it as well as velocity, 'cause changing each calibers velocity really skewed the impact force. The original calculation was just 'velocity * 0.01', but I'm using '0.5 * grain_weight * velocity^2 / 7000 * 2.2 / 32.175' (7000 converts grains to pounds, 32.175 is acceleration due to gravity, although I might be changing this as Unity doesn't actually have a unit of measurement). It gives pretty good values when I give each bullet their proper weights, from what someone has said on here about the .45 hitting harder than the 7.62x25 even though the 7.62 is almost twice as fast, it turned out pretty much the same in Receiver with real-world values. I'm not sure how it would turn out in my project though, like I don't know how much those 4 bullets weigh or the initial velocity of that gun and caliber either.

I wish I could help but my knowledge is secondhand and doesn't extend further than 'they exist'. And I know I just made a request but there's a feature I think would be important, at least for the automatic handguns; loading rounds directly into the chamber. I think the easiest way to do it would be to hold R and T to check the chamber, then press Z to load rounds.

anAngryHamster wrote:I wish I could help but my knowledge is secondhand and doesn't extend further than 'they exist'. And I know I just made a request but there's a feature I think would be important, at least for the automatic handguns; loading rounds directly into the chamber. I think the easiest way to do it would be to hold R and T to check the chamber, then press Z to load rounds.

Don't worry about it! It is a game after all, there's nothing wrong with making up values. For the chamber loading, are you talking about loading it from the top of the slide while it's open? I'm not sure how that would be preferable over putting one in your mag and chambering it from there, but it certainly is possible. I don't think it's really necessary though.