Overgrowth - Random Idea Dumping Thread

Anything related to Wolfire Games and/or its products
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leDoOd
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Post by leDoOd » Sat May 27, 2006 8:42 am

My list of 10 things graphically in a game that I love (in no order):

1. Water

2. Physics (player, npc and everything else that's interactable)

3. Lighting

4. Textures

5. Animations (speaking, attacking, jumping, swimming etc. Great speaking animations make me the happiest. :))

6. Motion blur (when doing fast things... it just looks cool :P)

7. Camera movement when interacting with things (like attacking in
Oblivion)

8. Hair (or fur :D)

9. In FPS games, when you move the mouse and the gun moves too like you're actually moving the gun around. I like that. :P

10. And last but not least, fiiiiiiire and smoke is good. I've yet to see a game that makes real fire, and not just a pre-made texture that loops endlessly and is paper-thin from above *cough*HL2*cough*.

My list of 10 things graphically in a game that I don't like (in no order):

1. Bloom/HDR lighting (It looks cheesy... if a company is trying to make things look realistic, then why do they implement this? It looks like the main character has glasses on that need to be cleaned.)

2. Bad animations/Clipping (It just shows how little the company cares about getting the animations so they move smoothly and look good, or how they spent all their time doing other things so they couldn't focus on making the game great as a whole.)

3. Bad textures (Read above, but replace "animations" with "textures".)

4. Bad physics (^^)

5. Bad water (^^^)

6. In FPS games, when you fire, it takes a pre-set amount of time to go to the place you're firing at - like in Half Life 2 and all of its mods, when you click the button, it goes from point A to point B instantly. In America's Army, it goes from point A to point B in a half second, no matter where you're standing. I think it would be cool if the bullets you fire actually go along with the bullet graphics on the screen.

7. I don't like how NPC's have lame conversations, like GTA:SA and Oblivion... they usually don't make sense, or they're one-sided, or they're just pointless.

8. I also don't like how things just ragdoll into death... but Lugaru 2 should fix this, so no use complaining about it. :P

9. Lame weather effects aren't good either. Most games just use a pre-set screened and looped texture in front of the camera to simulate weather (like rain and snow). Actual rendered weather would be so sweet.

10. Last and not least, I don't like how leaving anti-aliasing off decreases the quality as much as it does in most games. David's field of view thing he did in his blog a while ago should fix this hopefully.

Edit: Oh! What if, instead of having a pre-made animated texture for water, things like wind, plants, and player and npc interaction would make waves? These the waves could bounce off other waves, making cool ripples and awesome water effects. Gah, I love water. :twisted:

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Crill3
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Post by Crill3 » Sat May 27, 2006 9:08 am

Ditto, DoOd.
I haven't seen a game with a really good and realistic water in it yet,
but it must be hard to do though.

For Mac-using water lovers (click)

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Post by Nuky » Sat May 27, 2006 10:40 am

leDoOd wrote:6. In FPS games, when you fire, it takes a pre-set amount of time to go to the place you're firing at - like in Half Life 2 and all of its mods, when you click the button, it goes from point A to point B instantly. In America's Army, it goes from point A to point B in a half second, no matter where you're standing. I think it would be cool if the bullets you fire actually go along with the bullet graphics on the screen.
Have you ever even shot a gun in real life? I got a 15 meter shooting range in my basement, and an air rifle that's getting a wee bit old. When I shoot, it goes from point A -> 15 meters -> point B in less than 1/10th of a second.

You, man, have watched too much matrix. Bullets are DAMN fast... impossible to dodge.

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Post by Zantalos » Sat May 27, 2006 3:42 pm

Wow Ledood, you must be the most picky gamer I've ever known. A game to use all of those things would be damn laggy (you guys use the best adjectives, I just have to copy them).

Oblivion as well as pretty much all games, has to fake water and liquids. You just wouldn't be able to play them if they made everything realistic like that, the same goes with fire effects. Why be so picky about viewing fire from above? Just look at it horizontally, even straight down I can't tell with all the smoke and movement, I don't mind that much. (how do you make real fire? Is it possible?)

And why not HDR? It makes everything beautiful and awesome, you get soft lighting that spreads to all areas around the... well anyways this is Wikipeidea'sScreenshots of HDR rendering.
Image
Image
Image

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Post by Zantalos » Sun May 28, 2006 10:48 am

Oh man check this out, I've been playing America's army extensively (c'mon people get Xfire it comes with the America's Army package, so you know it's recommended by the U.S. government... which is a good thing by the way. I need someone else to play with, hdlsa is obsessed with his World of Warcraft :P ).
Bullets are shot based on your lag, they'll either appear instantly or a half second later (that sucks, but their are a ton of things you can turn down. It can look really nice, or extremely bad). Ok but here's something, richocheting bullets. They go not only from point A to point B, but also can hit points C as well. You shoot a wall or something at an angle and the bullets will bounce off it and hit something else. I don't know what this means, but at least you know that bullets are not instantaneous, they travel along and can hit stuff on the way there. You'll be able to track their movement by bouncing them off like this.

Another thing, even though Oblivion didn't experiment with it so much (did they? They didn't on my computer but, my shadows may not have been maxed out), A'sA did. Their shadows follow a similar algorithim (hell I don't know), to Lugaru 2's. They'll fade farther away and, say there's something like a box in front of you (there won't be a box), the shadows will sort of come down really light and then hit the box and be really dark again... That doesnt explain much... pictures! let's see...

Ok this looks kinda stupid. But it's actually pretty pointless too....
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Z ... hadows.png
Art Rage is hella hard to write with, it also takes 459 kb!
While something like this is only 95.2 Kb, weak.
Last edited by Zantalos on Sun May 28, 2006 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

lpod100
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Post by lpod100 » Sun May 28, 2006 11:09 am

I downloaded America's Army once, but I don't trust the government especially, so I took some time to read the license agreement. I don't remember were, but it said that the developer was allowed to access your computer through the game for statistical purposes. :?

could someone check for me? I'd like to have a direct quote, but I don't want to download the game again.

Zantalos
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Post by Zantalos » Sun May 28, 2006 11:51 am

4. Disclaimer of Warranty.
4.1. UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED IN THIS AGREEMENT, THE SOFTWARE IS DISTRIBUTED "AS IS." ALL EXPRESS OR IMPLIED CONDITIONS, REPRESENTATIONS AND WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT, ARE DISCLAIMED EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT THAT THESE DISCLAIMERS ARE HELD TO BE LEGALLY INVALID. THE SOFTWARE YOU ARE USING IS IN THE DEVELOPMENT STAGE AND, BY USING IT, YOU AGREE TO ASSUME FULL RESPONSIBILITY AND RISK FOR ANY COSTS OR DAMAGES YOU MAY INCUR WHILE USING THE SOFTWARE.

4.2. THIS SOFTWARE HAS BEEN PROVIDED TO YOU FREE OF CHARGE AND YOUR USE OF IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHALL THE DEVELOPER, UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, THEIR EMPLOYEES, AFFLILIATES OR CONTRACTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES THAT RESULT IN ANY WAY FROM: ANY USE OF THE SOFTWARE; OR, YOUR RELIANCE ON OR USE OF INFORMATION, SERVICES OR MERCHANDISE PROVIDED BY THE DEVELOPER IN RELATION TO THE SOFTWARE, OR THAT RESULT FROM MISTAKES, OMISSIONS, INTERRUPTIONS, DELETION OF FILES, ERRORS, DEFECTS, DELAYS IN OPERATION OR ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE.
Do you want the whole thing?
oh ha ha ha check this out. Hope you aren't from
Cuba, Libya, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Sudan
or anything!
5. Export Controls. You may not download, use or otherwise export or re-export the Software or any underlying information or technology except in full compliance with all United States and other applicable laws and regulations. In particular, but without limitation, neither the Software nor any underlying information or technology may be downloaded, used or otherwise exported or re-exported (i) into (or to a national or resident of) Cuba, Libya, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Sudan and any other country to which the United States has embargoed goods or (ii) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Deny Orders. By downloading or using the Software, you represent and warrant that you are not located in, under the control of or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list.
Whatever, I'm really buchering up this thread. I might as well go all in. :twisted:
ARMY GAME LICENSING AGREEMENT

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

This product is owned by the government of the United States of America and its use and reproduction are governed by the terms of this Licensing Agreement.

READ THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND ANY PROVIDED SUPPLEMENTAL LICENSE TERMS (COLLECTIVELY "AGREEMENT") CAREFULLY BEFORE OPENING THE SOFTWARE MEDIA PACKAGE. BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE MEDIA PACKAGE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSING AGREEMENT, INCLUDING THE GOVERNMENT'S ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY AND SUCH OTHER POLICIES AS IT MAY FROM TIME TO TIME ESTABLISH. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO ABIDE BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, THE SOFTWARE SHOULD BE DESTROYED. SHOULD YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS LICENSING AGREEMENT OR THE PROPER USE OF THE SOFTWARE, PLEASE CONTACT THE ARMY GAME PROJECT AT: [email protected]om.

IF YOU ARE ACCESSING THE SOFTWARE ELECTRONICALLY, INDICATE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THESE TERMS BY SELECTING THE "ACCEPT" BUTTON AT THE END OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO ALL OF THESE TERMS YOU MAY NOT ACCESS THE SOFTWARE. INSTEAD, YOU SHOULD SELECT THE "DO NOT ACCEPT" BUTTON AT THE END OF THIS AGREEMENT.

1. License to Use.
Subject to the provisions contained herein, Army Game Project (hereinafter, "Developer") hereby grants you a non-exclusive license to install and use the accompanying version of the proprietary software, its associated documentation and any updates thereto (collectively "Software"). The Developer may modify the Software at any time for any reason.

2. Restrictions.
The Software embodies trade secrets and intellectual property protected by United States and international copyrights and other laws and international treaties. By using the Software, you agree that all rights, title, and interest in the Software, including the copyrights and trade secrets, are the property of the Developer. You agree not to modify, decompile, disassemble, or otherwise reverse engineer the Software. In addition, you may not copy, reproduce, distribute, publish, display, perform, modify, create derivative works, transmit, or in any way exploit any part of the Software or associated registered user accounts, except as permitted under this Licensing Agreement. The Software has been developed for entertainment purposes only and is not designed or licensed for any other purpose. No rights, title or interest in or to any trademark, service mark, logo, trade name, or any other intellectual property right of Developer or the United States government or its licensors is granted under this Agreement.

3. Distribution
Except as otherwise provided in this Licensing Agreement, you may make copies of the Software and distribute them as long as the software is fully attributed to the Developer, the Software is whole and unmodified in any way and it is provided without charge to the recipient or any other party. This software may not be distributed as part of a package (with additional software or other products) without express written permission from Developer.

4. Disclaimer of Warranty.
4.1. Seen it
4.2. a formentioned quote

5. You saw this too

6. Any licensees of our server software must secure the written approval of the U.S. Army prior to establishing a server on a fee for service basis or for which they seek remuneration. Requests for written approval will be forwarded to [email protected].

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Renegade_Turner
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Post by Renegade_Turner » Sun May 28, 2006 1:41 pm

I'll have to agree with Zantalos, LeDoOd is extremely picky. You can't possibly expect the games to be able to have everything, and make everything perfectly realistic. What use would fully-animated realistic fires do you anyway? I don't pay attention to fire for more than five seconds in a game.

Another thing, HDRR looks beautiful and I'm puzzled at how you could think it looks cheap or whatever. It seems to improve the quality of the graphics greatly.
Last edited by Renegade_Turner on Mon May 29, 2006 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

lpod100
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Post by lpod100 » Sun May 28, 2006 2:57 pm

well, I downloaded the game... :?

I was actually looking for this (I think it has changed since last time):
Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that PunkBuster software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that PunkBuster software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow PunkBuster software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs PunkBuster software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed.

sorry to have taken this thread off topic, but I wanted to get that through.

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Crill3
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Post by Crill3 » Sun May 28, 2006 3:27 pm

So when you install PunkBuster, you basically share all your data
on your HD with the developers of PunkBuster?
:?

Suddenly I am happy that Enemy Territory never worked for me.

Zantalos
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Post by Zantalos » Sun May 28, 2006 5:40 pm

You guys do know what Punk Buster is?
Games and Servers that don't have punkbuster generally suck. Punkbuster searches for known hacks while you play the game, you can choose to turn it off for each game, but servers won't allow you to play them without it on. People who play games on Steam (Half-Life, Counter Strike), should be used to this, it's another anti-hack software (Vac Secured Servers).

I can gaurantee that Punk Buster won't destroy your hard drive (though I'm taking you on that gaurantee :P ). And even then, there's still the occasional hacker..

But yeah, if this bugs you alot, you don't have to. You can always choose to play without it.

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leDoOd
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Post by leDoOd » Sun May 28, 2006 6:53 pm

@Zantalos and Renegade Turner
I didn't say that I won't play a game if it doesn't meet my "requirements", I just meant that the better a game is graphically, the more n1nj4 t0k3nz it gets. :) I'm not picky; I love games that stink graphically like Deus Ex and Half Life - I just like the little tweaks that make it look "good" in my view. Those 10 things I like the most, and the 10 things that I don't like bug me.

Also, I'm free to have my own opinions of what I think looks good and bad, so stop saying how stupid I am because I don't like HDR (or HDRR in Renegade's world).

@Nuky

I have shot a gun - in an open field at a target 200 yards away. That, my friend, is not instantaneous. It's true that they are really damn fast, but it's not "point, shoot, die" from 200 yards. Things like the sniper rifles from a distance would be better for my idea, I guess.

I had a great idea that I was going to post, but you guys made me forget it. :(

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Post by Ninjas » Sun May 28, 2006 7:45 pm

HDR is a real life effect caused by the fact that light sources can be much brighter than what your eye, or a camera, can detect. Some games do go overboard on the simulation of this effect causing games to look too "fuzzy" for some players. The key to HDR, like every graphics technique, is to use it properly in the correct circumstances.

Like the original game, I suspect that screen grabs won't really do Lugaru 2 justice. David is focused on making a game that is amazing to play instead of one that can produce a few amazing looking screenshots for the back of a box. That said, us artists are working very hard to make the best looking game we can.

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leDoOd
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Post by leDoOd » Sun May 28, 2006 7:47 pm

That's comforting. Thanks for clarifying that. :D

NickD

Post by NickD » Sun May 28, 2006 7:58 pm

Be able to climb up trees... and... uh.... :lol: ...yah. Oh! also there shouldd be this thing where you go into water and if you go too far out a goldfish will eat you :shock: . That would be great. :P

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