Youtube Vids Dont show you the real combat: I DO

[anomalouzs]

Okay great engine, nice graphics & easily editable settings.

Now I spent $30 as an investment to support an easily modifiable engine, great game developers, & SOPHISTICATED COMBAT MECHANICS. I do not regret this & I will continue to support these developers due to their methodology.

Now in a lot of the youtube vids people show Overgrowth combat with no commentary to the control mechanics other than the overly simplified "it's Fun". This really means is that ALL you do is hold left click to AUTO ATTACK until you win (those kicks and punches you see on youtube vids are just randomly determined), doesn't matter which way the camera faces because your character turns automatically to face random opponents with no regard to threat level, just positioning. This constantly confuses the targeting system facing the player in unintended directions. Auto-Attacking leaves the player with nothing more to do than watch what is happening, just like in a youtube video.

Seriously if you are going to keep it like this you might as well just let me select a target and hit auto attack and just let me jump around for positioning while the player rabbit autoattacks because that is basically what is happening now holding/spamming left click except the player has no target priority & it is annoying having to hold down a button just to AUTO ATTACK (MAJOR WTF because this is supposed to be a live action brawler). No its no fun learning to block at certain times because that is not my play style, I would rather land a drop kick to the face from a high position and then melee kite shit for the lols than learn to 1 v 1 paced combat with blocking and shit. Nope, I sprint, use walls to dodge then spring off into the fucking enemy for a knockdown, jump into the air, bounce off someones stupid ass head & melee fury the shit outta anyone else dodging and leaping and bouncing off walls and shit, I DO NOT FUCKING BLOCK.

Why isn't MB1 Jab/Quick attack and holding it is a heavy punch.

Why isn't MB2 Kick/Heavy Attack & holding it does a round house standing or a sweep crounching or a running round house if running.

Why doesn't my bunny attack the way the camera is facing, I don't suck enough to need the computer to assume my target unless I specificy it mmo select target style, because it will always get it incorrect.

I CANNOT EVEN FUCKING SWING A FIST OR KICK WITHOUT BEING WITHIN THE VICINITY OF A CURRENT TARGET. THAT IS SOOOOOO FUCKING ANNOYING. I WANT TO RUN AROUND LIKE A DUMBASS PUNCHING THE AIR TO TEST MY APM. I WANT THE DAMN BUNNY TO SPITFIRE MY QUICK JABS AS FAST AS I CLICK.

With the current mechanics I am just literally a dumbass bunny jumping around waiting for some Shit head enemy to ALLOW ME TO attack like I AM fucking asking their permission and they so gracefully allow me to swing and kick, not like I have a choice on whether I kick or punch or not. I WANT TO HOLD CLICK TO POWER ATTACK.

WTF!!!! WTF WTF WTF WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME THIS WTF THIS IS SO FUCKING STUPID ASS SHIT.

Yes I can say this because I bought the alpha fair and square.


Update: Upon further experimenting it is to my complete dismay that the system IS an AUTO ATTACK mmo style combat brawler, just hold left click and watch as:

THE GAME PLAYS FOR YOU, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ATTACKS.
- Want to jab quickly to stun an opponent for .2sec while you dodge away, TO BAD HIGH KICK FOR YOU! Btw the high kick failed because the opponent just happened to use jab and got the attack off quicker. Better luck next time, U mad bro?

- Want to round house kick someone off a cliff? Naw bro, try these 3-4 other (RANDOMLY GENERATED) moves instead.

- Want to leg sweep an opponent, Nah bro my rabbit is tired, better stop attacking half way through.

No I DO NOT CONSIDER TIMING BLOCKS COMBAT.

Literally the combat is a complete LIE.

REVAMP: Always attack toward the way the camera is facing. Allow attacks away from opponents.

Character Stats: Strength: Affects the force of the melee attacks. The more strength the more force the character has in their attacks and vise versa. Someone who is 20% weaker than their opponent will not be able to block that opponents attacks, they will just get sent flying with the swing. More strength does not negatively affect speed or jumping. Strength can be separated into differing limbs such as a bunny having default 120 leg strength attribute and only 20 Arm strength. This would allow bunnies to not get leg swept because they have really strong legs but they cannot block standing because their puny arms get broken trying to block someones more powerful arms or legs. It would create/force playing styles on differing types of animals if you wanted to do that sort of thing. Such as Wolves have overall strength balance in their Limbs but the wolves agility is VERY shallow compared to a bunny legs making their fall height/Jumping really shallow forcing a tank style play of block and tactics which a lot of other people really favor. A 30% strength deficiency in attacking strength from the extremity being attacked means the attack is ineffective, the opponent is not staggered & the attacked character can play a grin animation instead (A guy standing there with a weaker guy trying to punch and kick the stronger guy but the attacks just bounce off and the guy grins, attacks do not combo but bounce off delaying the follow up by .08 sec).

Agility: How fast characters run, jump height, improve default all attack speed up to 30%, fall distance recovery, HOW EASILY BONES BREAK or FLEXIBILITY of bones (AKA can bend 20% more without breaking etc etc)

Health: How much attack force each bone section and take before it fails and breaks, disabling that limb or character. Skull, Hands (Left arm, Right arm), Legs (Knee, Ankle), Spine

Limbs and Damage: All 4 Limbs and be disabled through combat with the neck being fatal. Get grappled by someone really strong? Did it bend to far in the dynamic animation? O well its broke now! LOL. Get leg swept in the knee? O well that leg is broke now, have fun fist fighting you badass! (Character would stand but only be able to perform punches and a punch grapple combo, no throwing or other leg work, easily knocked down)

Combat buttons: MB1(Rebindable) Punch - Quick attack
- MB2(Rebindable) Kick - Heavy attack, (Rebindable)Block,
- (Rebindable) Sprint to Long Jump - Crouch jump after sprint ALA HL1
- MB3 (Rebindable)Grapple

Successive hits cause more damage.

Jab = quick attack: Performed in ~.05 seconds = Stun opponent .5sec to allow combo'ing of other attacks.

Example: Jab Jab = A quick Left right which could be followed up with more punches or kicks. So say you are facing an opponent, you quickly left click twice performing 2 quick jabs & the opponent is hit in the face if standing and not blocking or dodging and the animation of them getting staggered and stepping back only one step is the delay allows the player to follow up attacks.

Jab Jab Jab (Jab) = A Quick right left punch then a solid right (then continued with a Solid left). The 2 solid punches after the quick jabs are more able to be blocked because they would be performed with the characters arms drawn back in a heavy handed style because the jabs where used to stun an opponent long enough to get a powerful attack off. The 2 solid punches would take .1sec to drawn and swing each way. Depending on the strength variable and size of the opponent the heavy punch may or may not knock down.

Air Jab = Quick Air jab (Does not air combo), meant as a quick stun if in the air. Falling force is cumulative with the actual swing, may or may not snap neck (kill) with a well placed headshot. Faster the fall toward the opponent the more powerful the air Jab.

Crouch Jab = Stomach punch.

Hold Jab while standing from a crouch (Jump once the attack starts and it becomes a Shoryuken) = Uppercut, quick CC or insta kill depending on opponent n00bness (Difficulty).

Kick (Kick) = Kick is a powerful side of the head snap kick shallowly staggering an opponent in the kicks direction. Kick combos with Kick (A quick snap kick to the side of the face the opponent with quick kick with the other foot also to the face forcing the opponent into the original position allowing it to be followed by a spin kick or Punch in any position.) Holding Kick is round house style kick attack aiming for the head intended for crowd control by sending opponents off balance and out of combat by disabling balance & inflicting blunt stun damage at the same time. Takes .25 seconds to perform, may insta kill with enough character strength attribute.

Jump Kick = Karate Kid style flying kick like on the cover, force accumulation from falling/directional acceleration. Hold Kick & jump while starting to perform the kick to perform a jumping spin kick, force accumulative means adding of the jump to the force of the kick, depending on calculations used may double kicking damage or more (Especially on rabbits with strong legs).

Crouch Kick = Leg sweep, character strength and opponent strength determine whether a leg sweep has enough force to knock the opponent off balance onto the ground or just stun or completely ineffective.


Grapple/Throw: A Grapple is a quick way to take out an opponent 1 v 1. A grapple would be performed with the grapple key in a standing, mid air, or couching position (Stance determines action). A Standing grapple would take .1 seconds to perform so it is advisable to be used after a jab and not outright. After a grapple the opponent could be forced to crouch or stand or be thrown. To successfully force a throw the opponent would need to be in a stunned state caused by a Jab or kick then tap once to grapple then hold grapple to throw. A grappled Jab is just the character doing a quick right hander top the opponents face while the left hand is holding the collar of the opponent (Jabs while grappled does 1.1x damage). Whomever is holding the neck/collar of the other person is the one who has grappled their opponent. Blocking a Jab/Kick while in an opponents grapple delays the next attack from being performed by .02 seconds allowing for a counter which would end the grapple, a blocked punch to the face followed by a counter forces the opponent to let go of your collar/neck ending the grapple stance). For more stealthy players or to avoid detection from large crowds, crouch grappling will avoid excessive noise from running around and noise making of aerobatic combat.To successfully force a crouch grapple the opponent stuns them then presses the crouch key. Crouch grapple is used for stealth, once forced to crouch the grappled opponent could be repeatedly beaten in the face stealthily until dead if stun locked while grappled (by grapple + jab + jab + or hitting grappled on a already grappled opponent will flip them around for a choke hold, Jabs would be kidney punches until dead or hold Jab or a clean neck snap. A Forced crouched opponent grappled from behind and kicked would be the character ankle stomping the opponent until enough of them would break/disable the ankle weakening/slowing the opponent, Holding kick while holding an opponent crouched facing the opposite direction would perform an ankle stomp, dodge-able but twice as much force. Would take .18 seconds to kick position the opponents leg then STOMP! ankles shouldn't bend that way! Grappling standing opponents from behind & kicking would perform a knee to the spine causing impact damage with no or minor stun but weakens the attacked characters overall stats by such a -%, relative to the attackers strength (IF there is a 10% strength difference between the strength of the attack and the strength of the spinal column it may or may not break the spine which is a chance to paralyze one or both legs if hit with enough force. A paralyzed opponent would not be considered dead, just crowd controlled, may shout for reinforcements when stun from getting their spine broken wears off. Jump to release a grapple to allow for dodging if it turns out a grapple was a bad idea due to an incoming attack.

The combat is not about skill at all & is not satisfying in its current state. Just because my character performs round house kicks doesn't mean shit nor is it "cool" because THE FIGHTS ARE ALL RANDOMLY GENERATED BULLSHIT (BIGGEST FUCKING LET DOWN EVER), who the fuck cares if you roundhouse kick because all you fucking did anyway was hold left click like a little n00b (GREAT FOR CONSOLES & THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED who like watching games being played for them). YOU ONLY WIN IF THE COMPUTER DECIDES TO ROLL YOU A GOOD MOVE & COMBAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABILITY TO PICK A PROPER ATTACK AT A PROPER TIME such as high/low fast or slow attacks for different situation or even a simple grapple and throw mechanic.

I would rather feel good about utilizing tactics and strategy to CC large groups damaging limbs here and there, bouncing around. Where the fuck is the combat in this game going to go post alpha? Is wolfire really going to advertise a fucking live brawler that uses AUTO FUCKING ATTACK?! You do that just make the damn thing an mmo and let me bind special attacks from 1 thru 0 so I can hold left click to auto attack enemy while positioning with the arrow keys and performing special attacks with the number keys. Why would anyone design a live brawler with auto attack in mind that shit doesn't even make any sense! You guys going mmo and having the server roll attacks, this is a great way to reduce latency but shit to have fun with.

Seriously THE COMBAT (not the physics, how damage works or anything technical just game play wise combat) DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AND seems to have little logic applied.

HOW IS A PLAYER SUPPOSED TO GET BETTER AT AUTO ATTACKING LOL. This is supposed to be a brawler WTF is auto attacking doing in this game?!

[Korban3]

Well, it's funny you raged about holding to perform stronger attacks: http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/02/overgro ... 1st-draft/
Their original ideas was to have that, and if you see some video so of ole Rabbot kickin' it like a boss, you can see that he does have charged attacks. If I recall properly, they went to how it is now because it was to unresponsive, but I wasn't actually aware of Overgrowth or Lugaru during Rabbot's hey-day.
I noticed that raging the melee button does tend to make kills. Want to make it harder for yourself? Select an enemy, open the parameters menu and make them block 80% of your attacks and follow up with a throw on 60% of those. And make him attack a lot too.
And the game picks out targets for you based on distance. That's also how which attack you do is chosen. It's actually pretty easy to attack a specific enemy with a specific attack. My Dog Warhammer mod, which added functionality for the hammer, is quite a selective weapon. If you are standing still, you will ram the head of the hammer forward, but if you are trying to move you will swing the hammer. As for picking which enemy you want to kill, just move closer to your intended target
And I'm fairly sure it would be a one day effort to mod in attacking without enemies nearby. Srsly. The game is just that easy to mod, assuming you know some C coding. Actually, this would be a great for someone who doesn't know C to learn it through OG modding.
But it's really only as sophisticated as you make it. If I'm using my hammer, then I could just go in and maul it or I could think about each attack. If I'm in an area that is confined by solid, hard walls then I am going to use the pushing attack to slam opponents into walls to kill them faster. If I'm in the open, or on a hard surface, but have no walls then I'll be doing the overhead swing to smash them into the ground.

[Cake]

No its no fun learning to block at certain times because that is not my play style, I would rather land a drop kick to the face from a high position and then melee kite shit for the lols than learn to 1 v 1 paced combat with blocking and shit. Nope, I sprint, use walls to dodge then spring off into the fucking enemy for a knockdown, jump into the air, bounce off someones stupid ass head & melee fury the shit outta anyone else dodging and leaping and bouncing off walls and shit, I DO NOT FUCKING BLOCK.

You don't have to. Running, jumping, aerial attacks, wall jumps and dodging is all working perfectly.

I CANNOT EVEN FUCKING SWING A FIST OR KICK WITHOUT BEING WITHIN THE VICINITY OF A CURRENT TARGET. THAT IS SOOOOOO FUCKING ANNOYING. I WANT TO RUN AROUND LIKE A DUMBASS PUNCHING THE AIR TO TEST MY APM. I WANT THE DAMN BUNNY TO SPITFIRE MY QUICK JABS AS FAST AS I CLICK.

You could easily have seen that in the vids you claim to have watched. When you see noone attacking thin air in the game, it probably isn't possible.

THE GAME PLAYS FOR YOU, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ATTACKS.
- Want to jab quickly to stun an opponent for .2sec while you dodge away, TO BAD HIGH KICK FOR YOU! Btw the high kick failed because the opponent just happened to use jab and got the attack off quicker. Better luck next time, U mad bro?

- Want to round house kick someone off a cliff? Naw bro, try these 3-4 other moves instead.

- Want to leg sweep an opponent, Nah bro my rabbit is tired, better stop attacking half way through.

This is completely untrue. Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and whether you're moving .
For example:
Moving and not very close -> Roundhouse kick.
Crouching -> Leg sweep.
Standing and not very close -> Front kick.
Standing and close -> Knee strike.

Character Stats: Strength:-snip-

Giving one race more strength or agility and by thus making one playing style easier would be okay because the player would still have the choice how to play, but forcing one playing style wouldn't add anything to the game, it'd only be frustrating.

Limbs and Damage: All 4 Limbs and be disabled through combat with the neck being fatal. Get grappled by someone really strong? Did it bend to far in the dynamic animation? O well its broke now! LOL. Get leg swept in the knee? O well that leg is broke now, have fun fist fighting you badass! (Character would stand but only be able to perform punches and a punch grapple combo, no throwing or other leg work, easily knocked down)

Adds nothing to the game but more possibilities to fail.
Also, what if you only have your legs left and your leg strength is just 10%? Your strength idea wouldn't work with this!

YOU ONLY WIN IF THE COMPUTER DECIDES TO ROLL YOU A GOOD MOVE & COMBAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABILITY TO PICK A PROPER ATTACK AT A PROPER TIME such as high/low fast or slow attacks for different situation or even a simple grapple and throw mechanic.

Again: Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and by whether you're moving .

[anomalouzs]

You don't have to. Running, jumping, aerial attacks, wall jumps and dodging is all working perfectly.

You are wrong. This is an Alpha, you are trolling.

Also I can jump right past enemies without the computer even acknowledging I was within Ariel attack range, why? Because the damn game won't allow attacks unless within a specific range but you know what? I WILL BE WITHIN RANGE IN ANOTHER .005 seconds but if the computer fucks up and tells me no I am not within range to initiate attack the how the fuck am I supposed to fight. The damn computer is telling me I am supposed to play IT's way. IF YOU JUST FUCKING KICK YOUR LEG RETARD MAYBE BY THE TIME YOU GOT THERE IT WOULD CONNECT HUH! YOU FUCKING THINK OF THAT? NOPE! I can lead attacks like in any other fighter. But this shit.....NOPE, either be within range IMMEDIATELY or forfeit your turn.

This is completely untrue. Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and whether you're moving .
For example:
Moving and not very close -> Roundhouse kick.
Crouching -> Leg sweep.
Standing and not very close -> Front kick.
Standing and close -> Knee strike.

Moving and not very close? How close is too close or too far? Enemies change position constantly, how can i intend a proper attack and target when the enemy determines how effective at combat my character is based on how far they can kite my character.

The point is I need to CHOOSE WHO I ATTACK AND HOW. Not some random dice roll the game throws cuzz i hold a button and choose a direction.

You could easily have seen that in the vids you claim to have watched. When you see noone attacking thin air in the game, it probably isn't possible.

I don't make those type of assumptions. Just because no one has done it doesn't make it impossible.

Giving one race more strength or agility and by thus making one playing style easier would be okay because the player would still have the choice how to play, but forcing one playing style wouldn't add anything to the game, it'd only be frustrating.

I am glad you agree with me on something. This game forces you to auto attack, NO ONE PLAYS THIS GAME. THE GAME PLAYS ITSELF. You cannot force a play style on a player when the game plays itself.

Adds nothing to the game but more possibilities to fail.
Also, what if you only have your legs left and your leg strength is just 10%? Your strength idea wouldn't work with this!

That hypothetical situation would make a hell of a badass fight!

You couldn't rely on auto attack anymore and you would have to get good at playing! WEEEEE!

Again: Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and by whether you're moving .

AGain: It is inaccurate AT BEST & completely confused at worst. This is a really bad way to determine combat moves.

What if I want to jab and dodge left, why do I have to round house kick which takes too long? O because THE ENEMY DETERMINES YOUR ATTACKS NOT YOU. How can the enemy have a better weapon than knowing exactly what to do ALWAYS. Reduces combat to I HOPE I WIN! I BETTER HOLD LEFT CLICK HARDER!

[Count Roland]

you're being silly. Nothing you say feels like a legitimate complaint. it's clear you have no idea how the game works if your fighting is reduced to "MUST HOLD LEFT CLICK HARDER HOPE I WIN"

[anomalouzs]

you're being silly. Nothing you say feels like a legitimate complaint. it's clear you have no idea how the game works if your fighting is reduced to "MUST HOLD LEFT CLICK HARDER HOPE I WIN"

My text shouldn't make you feel like a legitimate complaint, it will state them.

You cannot skill up Auto attack lol.

When the game chooses when and how to fight, YOU ARE NOT PLAYING THE GAME. NO ONE IS


This is a GAME PLAYING A GAME.

[Jeff]

Hey there, you have some interesting ideas and I feel like we could have a good discussion about the pros and cons of various game design choices... However, extremely aggressive tirades are really not the best way to do that. It's really draining to read your suggestions.

[anomalouzs]

Hey there, you have some interesting ideas and I feel like we could have a good discussion about the pros and cons of various game design choices... However, extremely aggressive tirades are really not the best way to do that. It's really draining to read your suggestions.

Excuse me, I'll keep them as technical as I can.

Thank you for your hard work. Great job on the point cloud implementation.

I would love to have a good discussion about pros and cons of various games design choices. What would you like to discuss?

[Cake]

You don't have to. Running, jumping, aerial attacks, wall jumps and dodging is all working perfectly.

You are wrong. This is an Alpha, you are trolling.

Even if it's an Alpha, things can still work perfectly already.

Also I can jump right past enemies without the computer even acknowledging I was within Ariel attack range, why? Because the damn game won't allow attacks unless within a specific range but you know what?

What? You want melee attacks with unlimited range?!

This is completely untrue. Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and whether you're moving .
For example:
Moving and not very close -> Roundhouse kick.
Crouching -> Leg sweep.
Standing and not very close -> Front kick.
Standing and close -> Knee strike.

Moving and not very close? How close is too close or too far? Enemies change position constantly, how can i intend a proper attack and target when the enemy determines how effective at combat my character is based on how far they can kite my character.

The point is I need to CHOOSE WHO I ATTACK AND HOW. Not some random dice roll the game throws cuzz i hold a button and choose a direction.

You have a strange sort of logic there. Why is checking if a direction and LMB are both pressed random, and checking if LMB is pressed isn't random?

You could easily have seen that in the vids you claim to have watched. When you see noone attacking thin air in the game, it probably isn't possible.

I don't make those type of assumptions. Just because no one has done it doesn't make it impossible.

Umm... that's silly.

Giving one race more strength or agility and by thus making one playing style easier would be okay because the player would still have the choice how to play, but forcing one playing style wouldn't add anything to the game, it'd only be frustrating.

I am glad you agree with me on something. This game forces you to auto attack, NO ONE PLAYS THIS GAME. THE GAME PLAYS ITSELF. You cannot force a play style on a player when the game plays itself.

You're not making any sense here at all.

Adds nothing to the game but more possibilities to fail.
Also, what if you only have your legs left and your leg strength is just 10%? Your strength idea wouldn't work with this!

That hypothetical situation would make a hell of a badass fight!

When your only attacks are always blocked because the strenght of the limbs they're executed with is lower than the strength of the attacked enemie's bodyparts, that is a badass fight?

Again: Which attack you use is determined by your distance to the enemy, by whether you're crouching and by whether you're moving .

AGain: It is inaccurate AT BEST & completely confused at worst. This is a really bad way to determine combat moves.

What if I want to jab and dodge left, why do I have to round house kick which takes too long? O because THE ENEMY DETERMINES YOUR ATTACKS NOT YOU. How can the enemy have a better weapon than knowing exactly what to do ALWAYS. Reduces combat to I HOPE I WIN! I BETTER HOLD LEFT CLICK HARDER!

If you want to jab and then dodge left, press LMB and immediately press a then.
Oh, and the AI does not "know" which attacks you'll use because the user input isn't used in the AI scripts!

[Endoperez]

When you play this game, you're not controlling the attacks. You're controlling your distance and timing. It worked very well in Lugaru, but Lugaru was a single-player game with no multiplayer at all.

So the basic idea has been tested, and it can work well - it was fantastic in Lugaru. But it might not work for multiplayer.

Are you judging the game based on possible multiplayer playability, or as it works as a single-player game?


I was looking for youtube videos that'd demonstrate how accurately the context-based controls can be, but instead I just found a video demonstrating how brutal Overgrowth combat can look.


Sheesh, Cake, what's up with you? No need to be so aggressive.

Even if it's an Alpha, things can still work perfectly already.
...
What? You want melee attacks with unlimited range?!

Alpha means "a very, very early development version". Or "things don't work yet".

It's pretty clear what he meant. He meant that you should be able to start a kick whenever you want, so that if an enemy is running towards you, the kick connects right when the enemy enters the kicking range.

[anomalouzs]

Even if it's an Alpha, things can still work perfectly already.

Attempting to argue that

"Running, jumping, aerial attacks, wall jumps and dodging is all working perfectly."

No, they are not.
They are in Alpha state.

What? You want melee attacks with unlimited range?!

I want the character to attack whether or not I am close to an enemy when I hit an attack key like punch or kick. I do not consider some auto attack (dis)function fun combat.

You have a strange sort of logic there. Why is checking if a direction and LMB are both pressed random, and checking if LMB is pressed isn't random?

I am not sure if I am interpreting your question properly but personally I like the directional keys to only apply to which way the character moves and nothing to do with what attacks are performed.

Stance determines attacks, not relative distance. Stance = Standing, Running, Falling, Forward Acceleration past running, Crouch, Grapple. Meaning punch/kick button while standing will either face jab/snap kick headshot, running jab/accelerated spin kick, falling jab/Stomp(Standing or crouching but applying force acceleration), Forward acceleration like Long jumping to flying jab/kick which would increase damage output by also applying acceleration force to the attack, Crouch punch/kick would be a gut punch for a stun or a leg sweep to damage knee ankle parts.

So when I press LMB1 I expect a certain attack Always indeterminate of the direction i am running strafing in. I always need a certain key to do a certain thing. I need to choose attacks properly based not on distance but on crowd control factors, enemy strength/skill/speed.

Such as, in a hypothetical combat situation as a player character (I use the term loosely as this is currently an auto brawler) against a wolf and 2 guard rabbits.

Playing as a rabbit I encounter a wolf with 2 rabbit guards, now as a rabbit have speed and Z axis advantage over a Wolf.

Now I apply CC (Crowd control) to Wolf

Out maneuver the wolf to draw the 2 rabbit guards out of range of the wolf by height or distance.

Now I apply CC to Rabbit Guard 1, Disable leg or arm.

As the two guards approach I long Jump toward both of them bouncing off one sending the opponent flying, I consider this a stun CC which seems to last 3-5 seconds to recover from at the moment (Them standing up from a fallen position an unable to attack which takes that opponent out of the battle and is considered CC).

Now if I they programmed the ability to choose to kick or punch I could easily throw some fancy spin kicks/Jab combo's together an put on a 1v1 show for MYSELF by comboing Jabs kicks and grapples.

HOLD LEFT CLICK TO INITIATE COMBAT IS NOT FUN. THE COMPUTER HAS SO MUCH CONTROL OVER COMBAT IT LITERALLY DOES IT FOR YOU.


So say I want to pull off a round house kick on someone.

Well as of now I have to position a certain distance from my enemy to ENABLE a round house kick.
The fact that the attack move is unavailable unless within certain distance parameters really just limits my ability to perform said attack. For entertainment value alone I want to just round house kick for fun (trees, air, shrubs to make them move or w/e else). Seeing the nice dynamic animations is a real treat and testament to the awesome coding. So instead of simply walking up to an enemy and round house kicking using a Kick key as opposed to punch or grapple I must now make sure I bait the enemy perfectly so they step into a weak zone so I am able use the move, otherwise I am S.O.L. and get hit for no real good reason other than the game doesn't let me play it. Seriously if you could throw random round house kicks the enemy AI would seriously step into them a lot while dodging.

Umm... that's silly.

What is silly? You quoted 2 different things and didn't specify which one you want to target. Or does this forum have auto attack too?

You're not making any sense here at all.

Yes I am. Re-read it.

When your only attacks are always blocked because the strenght of the limbs they're executed with is lower than the strength of the attacked enemie's bodyparts, that is a badass fight?

Yeah, you gotta break em down. So target something weak like a knee cap. A powerful enemy like that would probably be a little slower so anyone may have a speed advantage. So after disabling both knees he could only fight fisted which would allow for more powerful attacks like jumping off things to force accelerate attacks to do enough damage to kill. Breaking a knee would unstabilize the opponent too so a knockdown would be easy, once on the ground grapple and smash or pickup and toss or break neck or smash face or tea bag etc etc.

If you want to jab and then dodge left, press LMB and immediately press a then.
Oh, and the AI does not "know" which attacks you'll use because the user input isn't used in the AI scripts!

Attemping to dodge after an attack forces me to uncoordinate my attacks from my movement because I am being forced to focus all combat coordination attention on attacking instead of multitasking movement and attack separately.

I need to move into attack then away. That means I need to have attacked before being attacked so if I have to be within the same range as the enemy can attack back the computer can technically always initiate first so to get out of this the player needs to be able to lead and attack outside of the current predetermined attack range. To avoid being hit at all the computer/opponent can waste your attack turn by moving out of your attack zone then moving in real fast to initiate. This is kiting. If I can swing before he moves into the predetermined attack range again it would be into my characters flying fist of death.


THIS IS AN AUTO BRAWLER. HOLD LEFT CLICK TO INITIATE.

When you play this game, you're not controlling the attacks. You're controlling your distance and timing. It worked very well in Lugaru, but Lugaru was a single-player game with no multiplayer at all.

Technically, the computer controls the distance due to the determination of attacking based on how close to the enemy the character is. So if the enemy character chooses to be out of range, the game is really playing you. I find this personally distasteful.

It's pretty clear what he meant. He meant that you should be able to start a kick whenever you want, so that if an enemy is running towards you, the kick connects right when the enemy enters the kicking range.

Indeed I did.

[Endoperez]

Technically, the computer controls the distance due to the determination of attacking based on how close to the enemy the character is. So if the enemy character chooses to be out of range, the game is really playing you. I find this personally distasteful.

Oh, I see. I've come across similar statements before.

In that case, the person was arguing that when you auto-resolve a fight (it was a strategy game) against an AI force, the AI cheats to make the player's side weaker. That is, the AI makes worse options for the player than it does for the computer's side.

The thing is, the computer isn't playing "the PC's side", it's a neutral observer.

Enemy characters don't choose to be out of range, but have a pattern to their movement and choices. The player's job is to learn these patterns. For example, lets talk about three patterns the AI has already: attacking/advancing, retreating, and unaware of the player.

If the AI character is retreating, it's moving away and, currently, the human player has trouble catching up with it. The attacks and movement methods for catching them don't exist yet, except for jumping after them.
If the AI is unaware of the player, it's moving on a patrol route. The player can try to sneak up on it, or just go nearer it, in which case it will become aggressive and attack.

If the AI character is attacking, or wants to attack, it's moving towards the player. The movement is slightly random, and/or affected by terrain and other AI characters, but you know the AI wants to come closer. This is where, I assume, you've found that the "AI stays out of range". If not, this is where it most probably will be an issue, if it is one. If the AI just walks towards the player with open arms and a silly smile and gets kicked to death, the AI is too stupid. It's no challenge at all. On the other hand, if the AI stays just out of the player's range and avoid all of the attacks, the fights are frustrating.

The computer's job as a neutral observer isn't to make the AI characters fight in the most optimized way, but in the way that provides optimal fun and challenge for the player. The AI might have to be tweaked so that the enemies come a bit closer, for example.
Other thing that might help fix your issues is changing the range from which attacks can be initiated. If the roundhouse kick can be started from as far away as you would want to perform it against a charging enemy, then the rest of the system wouldn't have to be changed, I think.

[anomalouzs]

The thing is, the computer isn't playing "the PC's side", it's a neutral observer.

The computer may observe but it also is determining combat based on algorithmic equations. If the computer chooses to randomly Roll "Escape tactic" over and over while allowing another friendly to constantly be able to attack, it may not be a programming error but it is still doing it.

Sure it may be a fair but dirty tactic but let me counter it with a kick or punch. They will always move out of range so why does that need to make me helpless, what if they are out of range for only .00001 seconds and then only out of range by .00001 distance, if I had attacked it would have connect, otherwise currently you would have been left getting killed because the computer said no. Why is the computer telling me what I can and cannot do with a piece of beautiful software that allows me to mod it and create levels freely but not the freedom of Active self defense(Attacking)? Why is only passive defense (blocking) enabled out of combat range? That still makes no sense to me.

I don't mind being kited but to disable my moveset completely making the character defenseless and making it POSSIBLE to be kited infinitely is Luda Luda luda cris, Ludicrous (bad and makes no sense to me whatsoever). In no situation in a brawler would I want my character to not defend or attack, & being able to not defend or attack is what always happens when auto attack decides to not cooperate, which is what currently happens.

If the roundhouse kick can be started from as far away as you would want to perform it against a charging enemy, then the rest of the system wouldn't have to be changed, I think.

Any move should be performed where I want it, I am the one buying and playing the game. If the game wants to play itself it can go get a job and buy a computer, buy a copy and play itself.

Also separate Block, Grapple, Punch and Kick keys to be independent of each other.

[Endoperez]

Any move should be performed where I want it, I am the one buying and playing the game. If the game wants to play itself it can go get a job and buy a computer, buy a copy and play itself.

Also separate Block, Grapple, Punch and Kick keys to be independent of each other.

The game isn't playing itself, but has some automated features. You know how old RPGs didn't have a journal or automap, and the players had to keep a notebook and draw maps? The games these days "draw the maps themselves", because most players want to fight and adventure instead of keeping notes.
Overgrowth doesn't focus on button combos. It's meant to work with timing, learning to judge distances, positioning yourself so multiple enemies can't get to you at the same time, and more. In Lugaru, you were expected to keep the attack buttondown during some types of fights! Of course, Lugaru had implemented counters, which don't exist yet in Overgrowth. Counters forced you to stay aware during the whole fight, because any attack might get countered, and then you only have a few moments to react to that.

Overgrowth isn't Tekken. It's different. It's meant to be different. Block, punch, kick and grapple already have unique controls. Making them different buttons would hurt the game.

[anomalouzs]

The game isn't playing itself, but has some automated features.

If my car is automated to have an alarm go off, it's doing it based on its own algorithm. I can set the alarm to go off when I want but whether or not the alarm goes off is really up to the computer.

The ENTIRE POINT OF AUTOMATION IS THAT SOMEONE IS NOT DOING IT, IT IS AUTOMATED. AUTOMATING COMBAT IN A BRAWLER LEAVES ME WITH NOTHING MORE THAN WATCHING THE SCREEN. I AM NOT PLAYING.

Whether or not the game decides to swing or kick is up to the computer.

You are not playing the game, the game plays itself.


Automating combat means I am not playing because my controls are being automated by the computers algorithmic determination. You can fool yourself into thinking you are playing with position tactics but who really did the spin kick, not you, all you did was HOLD LEFT CLICK, the computer decided it was OKAY to LET the character spin kick or not, not the player who is supposed to be the player not the observer.

Combat with auto attack enabled is not combat, it is position changing and watching your character (not) do stuff while holding LEFT CLICK.