Request for Developers

[BeefSUPREME]

Hi there I had posted this on GT on one of your latest videos but figured it would have been more easily seen here.

"I've been watching these videos since the beginning and I must say you guys should be proud of what you're creating. It looks like a lot of fun.

Only couple of issues I have really is that 1. Every attack seems really fast and I think the combat should be parsed up a bit with slow-ish power attacks, or attacks that have "tells" but are very powerful. I'm not sure if this game was going to be wanting a multi-player component but I can say after my extensive amount of fighting game playing (guilty gear, sfae, blaz, tekken, etc) and my background in action 3rd person games like DMC and the like.. let's just say I'm 31 and have been gaming since the late 80's and leave it at that (also have a design degree), that in order for a game to have lasting action mechanics there needs to be some variance and visual balance.

There seems to be some extensive action moments such as your slow-down camera on impacts and nifty blood effects. But I think that there should be some visually flashy attacks. It can help break up the monotony of fast spam slashing and it can be a suitable way to balance fighting mechanics, such as priority moves.

The other thing I'm wondering is what is the focus of this game? Is it PvP? PvE? are you looking to do both? One complaint I've had over the years is PvP components are thrown in a game just for the sake of saying "hey why not?" when personally I think there have been tons of missed opportunities over the years.

Keep up the amazing work ! And I thank you for the awesome videos during the games development ! "

I'm sure you get tons of thoughts and advice all the time so if you disagree with these statements or if things similar are already underway I understand. However I have some specific ideas and can describe them in detail if anyone is interested Have a nice day !

[Djemps]

I hear what you are saying, but what you see and what you feel are two different experiences. I hate to tell you to just pony up and pre-order the game so you can play around with the alpha, but that is really the best advice. Once you get into the actual combat experience, you will pick up on the tells and pacing of the combat. Overgrowth's combat system is like nothing I've ever experienced before (also 31 yrs old) so it doesn't make sense to compare it against previous brawling games that use specific buttons and combinations to deliver attack and defense.

[Windlord]

Why don't you try the game out?

1. The attacks have no flashy effects, for a reason.
Overgrowth, from what I have seen, aims to be as realistic as possible. It therefore does not provide an obvious health bar, and allows players to rely on elements such as sound, movements (shifting, pulling back for a punch etc) and visual effects (blood wounds).

It's incomparable to 2D mash-the-keys type games where context aware actions are practically non-existant. It's one of its kind.

Take a look at any martial arts match and you'll notice that there's a lot of circlings, dodgings and sudden attacks. This is what Overgrowth is currently like.


2. Lugaru is mainly story-driven with a PvE challenge mode. Overgrowth should follow a similar path. The only PvP currently available is via the use of controllers on the same PC.

It has been mentioned that while multiplayer support may be added, if it ever is added, it should be for co-op purposes.

[Endoperez]

Aiming for a realistic feel doesn't mean you can't go for flashy attacks. Also, gameplay should come before visual considerations.

I agree with the previous comment about not judging Overgrowth by the looks only. The control system is rather unique. (Unfortunately, I'm not 31.)

Overgrowth's moveset is still incomplete. In Lugaru, the slow movements came as counter-moves, performed by timing a block perfectly. So punch-punch-kick-COUNTER throw... The fact that many moves knock the enemy either down, or away, also help slow down the combat.

Another way to make it interesting would be to have the AI opponents keep out of melee reach with a bit more intelligence. Now they stay rather close. An enemy darting in and out would force the attacks to be slowed down.

[Korban3]

Well, they kind of already try to stay back a bit. They seem to have a sort of intent drive. It's placed on and off. If it's on, they run at you and attack, usually pulling the first back or raising their weapon with that threatening blend animation. If the attack intent is turned off, they will pull back when you approach. I'm a slow fighter in OG, so I see a lot of that movement because I don't attack much. Consequently, I suck at it, but there is some of that movement there.
And yeah, you get a feel for attack timing and such when you get it in your hands.

Did someone say 'pony'?

[BeefSUPREME]

Why don't you try the game out?

1. The attacks have no flashy effects, for a reason.
Overgrowth, from what I have seen, aims to be as realistic as possible. It therefore does not provide an obvious health bar, and allows players to rely on elements such as sound, movements (shifting, pulling back for a punch etc) and visual effects (blood wounds).

It's incomparable to 2D mash-the-keys type games where context aware actions are practically non-existant. It's one of its kind.

Take a look at any martial arts match and you'll notice that there's a lot of circlings, dodgings and sudden attacks. This is what Overgrowth is currently like.


2. Lugaru is mainly story-driven with a PvE challenge mode. Overgrowth should follow a similar path. The only PvP currently available is via the use of controllers on the same PC.

It has been mentioned that while multiplayer support may be added, if it ever is added, it should be for co-op purposes.

Thanks for your comments.

I have to say I'm intrigued by the game but not quite interested in supporting it financially. Part of the reason I'm still waiting to see what the general "focus" of this game is. It's fuzzy to me from all the development diaries and I'm still waiting to see what the developers come up with.

I unfortunately will have to disagree with some of your implications as it compares to my tastes and what is necessary for a game. Realism isn't necessarily equivalent to fun or balance. In fact I've seen a lot of games go for realism and the closer they get to it the less fun the game turns out to be. It's usually a control/balance issue. Not to say a game can't be realistic and fun but overall I'm more impressed by game mechanics rooted in action that is balanced and has high degrees of mastery. I never insinuated this game was a button-masher (how can I, I haven't played it) I was speaking purely of an aesthetic look to the combat. And you'd be surprised how "masher" a game can be even though the combat is perceivably more robust than say Gauntlet Legends.

I don't know how the controls are in this game but from what I visually see (as apposed to psychically?) it reminds me more of DOA than say DMC and this is what sparked my comment. I'd like it if game developers weren't trying to create something "completely unique" when there is obviously no such thing. There are a lot of fantastic games to learn control mechanics off of and create your own spin.

[Korban3]

Yes, that's exactly it. Oni was the inspiration for Lugaru, if I recall correctly. Lugaru's world is unique and original, and the character's and storyline are David's creation, but he still took inspiration from something else. Just happens that that something else was a game grounded in realism as well.
And I know what you mean about realism not necessarily meaning fun.
Minecraft = Fun
And isn't all that realistic at all.
Desert Bus = Not Fun
But it's realistic.

BUT, a well done game that uses physics and design the way OG does doesn't need flashy effects or over-dramatized ninja attacks to have intense combat or engaging platforming. Kind of like Mirror's Edge, which was a good game because of it's awesome mechanics.
However, I can say that I personally would not enjoy OG's combat nearly as much if it had uber 1337 special attacks that I have little control over, like Assassin's Creed (Part of my not-as-large-as-expected list of complaints, now that I've actually played the game recently).
I like that left click means I want to kill something and that right click means I want to avoid dieing and that using WASD means I want to navigate or avoid something moving. And I like that the animations, sound design and effects all lend themselves to a stark, grim and suspenseful environment for me to get my ass kicked in without over-the-top stylization to muddy up the experience.

[AAorris]

[+] semantics

Realism isn't necessarily equivalent to fun or balance.

I'm going to be quite honest and say that I feel there are no direct equivalents to fun or balance, especially not using terms as broad as "realistic" vs "unrealistic"; where one is fun and balanced, and the other is not. When people try to argue about things like that here, they get confused once they notice they're arguing about a true-to-life fighting game starring anthropomorphic animals. There are reasons everything is how it is! And I'm sure there's room for fun.

I'd like it if game developers weren't trying to create something "completely unique" when there is obviously no such thing. There are a lot of fantastic games to learn control mechanics off of and create your own spin.

Really? My favorite part of a game is exploring its unique mechanics. From spinning existing mechanics to creating completely unique ones, there is always a point somewhere in between them that a game picks up. And rightfully so! Lots of games have some feeling that they want the player to catch on to, and they design or study mechanics that can convey that. Sometimes, conveying those feelings requires something that isn't commonly done these days!

End game, I always have been, and will be a hardcore finesse player. I don't enjoy being clobbered by people who've never played before, or people who can beat me simply because they spend their time mindlessly playing it. When something has intuitive, but complex controls, and leveling up is actually you mastering them - and your skill as a player has a significant impact on the outcome in the game, I enjoy it. A lot! (that said, its not a hard and fast rule for me, if I've shown anything in the last blocks of text, it's that I spend a lot of energy to show people that you really can't say something is black or white)

[+] looking back to lugaru

Overgrowth is a game stepping forward from Lugaru, so there's a lot you can glean from it.
(You should give the lugaru demo a try to figure out how these games feel!)
Let's have a little look back and maybe you can imagine what the devs here are working towards.
Combat in lugaru is intense. even more intense and brutal than Overgrowth is right now.

The controls are unique and have very specific effects. Attacks are different and purposeful, and counters push your reflexes to the limit. My player progression in combat has come a very long way, and I feel rather adept at fighting now. I know how to open, sustain, and end a fight, and manipulate the opponent to my advantage. However, no matter how awesome I am at fighting, Lugaru makes me use my head. I can't fight 3 animals my size by charging and holding down my attack button. That starts to bring up the other side of wolfire gameplay, strategy. In a fighting game? Really? That's not possible... Anyway, you honestly have to plan out every move you make when the odds are against you. You have to use the environment to your advantage, and you have to use your movement before, and during combat strategically.

I really loved Lugaru, because if I was being silly - it would chew me up and spit me out. Every time.

Oh, I haven't mentioned the context-aware combat controls yet. Your different attacks are not mapped just to buttons, but to situations. Attacks close up or far away, moving or staying still, up down or jumping, each have the possibility for different attacks with specific effects. using those to your advantage means you have to be moving around, which is useful in itself for pacing. Using space to your advantage is an important part of fighting here.

And of course, even in lugaru the damage system was complex, but Overgrowth is shining right now in a certain area of this. Another aspect of using the environment to your advantage is knowing that your opponents respond to environmental damage based on where they're falling, or getting hit! Just casually falling onto your neck can be fatal if you're not careful, and if you can line up an opponent so that your attacks use this to your advantage, you're way ahead in Lugaru and Overgrowth.

Anyways, that's just a little taste of things around here. I highly recommend Lugaru, you might have to acquire a taste for the controls for these games but if you're anything like me, you'll enjoy it! Overgrowth is still in alpha, and the combat is still growing too. Rest assured that the devs have complex, intuitive, and intelligent controls in mind as the highest priority of their design here.

[+] summary

• Overgrowth combat is in development, obviously
• Game mechanics are going to be intuitive, complex, intelligent
• Combat is going to be about more than you're used to

Anyways, you bring up a good point for the reputation of Overgrowth and Lugaru - People need to find a way to show off the complexity/skill of its gameplay to attract new players.