Wolfire Games Forums

We all assume that there will be a L3 and posably L9.
How ever, May I add something that could be a brilliant Idea?
(Well Im going to anyway So Sit Down and Shut Up )
I have heard arguments Between some people at my Local Cyber Cafe about First Person Shooters vs Real Time Strategy games.

They rabble about which one is better and which one has Skill.
I Think they are all great. how ever, How about Remaking them to be compatible with Each other.

Warcraft 3 and Doom 3 meet. (there may and probably is better games but I thought the three part fits with the occasion)
Why not get that FPS Fanatic who thinks he don't need nobody but him, His gun and his Skill to face a RTS player who thinks Using his Beefed out Stealth Tanks to take out the FPS players.

The Phoenix sounds like it is very versatile and With a little Extra Work you could make a RTS with Better Graphics with it.

It may sound a bit too out there, but i think it could work very Nicely.

There are actually some games that are somewhat like that, like Savage,
and a couple of Half-Life 2 mods.
Like in Zombie Master for HL2 (not yet released), one player is the aptly named Zombie Master and controls legions of zombies,
and has the ability to spawn more as he gains points, and also cause environmental hazards.
The other team consists of humans who play the game like an FPS, and they try their best to survive/escape the city.
In Savage (kinda like in Empires for HL2) there is one commander for each team, and he can order npcs to build houses and so on.
He has the advantage of oversight, so he can give orders to the FPS players.

Your idea is a bit different though,
I don't think there has been a game where a single player is pitted against an "army" controlled by a RTS-player.
Although it could probably be done in ZM, but no matter how good you are,
the zombies are too strong and too many to be overcome by pure skill, you need a team.

When I think about it, your idea sounds pretty cool actually… especially if the fps-player has all the advantages you’d expect,
like fast movement, hiding in bushes (or just under things, where the RTS-player can’t see him, because of his point of view), high precision with grenades, headshots, and so on. But a whole army seems a bit overkill. Maybe a couple of squads of soldiers?
The FPS-player could probably defeat the RTS-player by sneaking into his base and planting bombs in his headquarters or something to that extent. That could be a cool showdown, maybe the RTS-player could zoom into the building and try to send soldiers after the other player. But due to thin corridors and such it wouldn’t be too easy to navigate soldiers within the building, to avoid the FPS-player from being overwhelmed.

Whoo, that post got a bit out of hand. I’ll stop ranting here. ;P

There is a game called savage where you get the commander and the units. The units are FPS and the commander is RTS. The commander tells the units what to do and if they follow orders they ar rewarded with points (plus the only way to build is with a commander).

I did not know that.
Well I be.

anyway... the FPS player of cores would have the advantage of an Inventory and I like the idea of Stealth Tactics Zaphon. and there would also be other FPS players.

Your idea is a bit different though,
I don't think there has been a game where a single player is pitted against an "army" controlled by a RTS-player.
Although it could probably be done in ZM, but no matter how good you are, the zombies are too strong and too many to be overcome by pure skill, you need a team.

I got Frags and Respawn points!
yea there would be Co-op in it.

You could have Objectives where you have to Capture and Secure a spot.
you could also need to go to all control Centers/Town Centers/Bases and infiltrate and Kill the commanders avatar/Steal a computer chip that is the RTS player/Press the Self-destruct Button of the building.

I also think there should be a point system for Different Abilities and Guns available. that way you can have abilities in Other RTS's Such as Flying Buildings, or Spawning and Evolving Units like in Starcraft, or capability of Fading into darkness, or use of Spells like in Warcraft III.

you could also have custom models for you're owen armies, and hundreds of premade Armies based off other Classic RTS games.

and in FPS mode you can Choose to be any of the Units as a Avatar/Skin with there abilities. maybe there could be third person mode as well.

I think the basic idea is quite interesting. Why don't you write a complete concept?

What do you mean?
like What else could be added?
or a Story to go with it?

I thought this is a concept.

May i ask, do you guys why would you not play it and why don't you think it will work so i can think up more ideas?

A game concept is a lot more than the short description of you. I mean, we get the picture, but some very important details (like how to ensure that it's a fair competition, how the levels enhance the gameplay idea, what each player can do, how many players are there, what the NPCs do and a lot of stuff I can't think about) are missing.

Please take the time to read this Wikipedia article and that FAQ and some stuff on that site of gamedev.net if you're really considering making a complete concept

It's tough, but it's fun! And I think your idea is worth putting energy into it.

Thank you rudel_ic.

I get an idea of what you mean.
Ill cover some bullet points from the Wikipedia Site.

Technical & Production: Well I am hoping that Wolfire Software will like this idea Enough to Create it, how ever, If they don't like the idea Ill have to Turn to other Companies.

Intended target audience: The audiences would be aimed at Teenagers that Like Warcraft III and Counterstrike, and maybe a few other Games.

Ethical: The only Ethics in most FPS's I have played its Shoot what ever Moves, ask questions later. and with Command and conquer its Build a massive Force of Tanks and Zerg the foe, or they make a bunch of Towers and Make Chains of Defense (Age of Empires tactic).
I want to make Stealth, Trickery, and Plotting important aspects.

Political: I think keeping things away from Don Brash, George Bush and Helen Clark and her-majesty of England is a Good thing. how ever I don't think thats what they meant. It would need to be kept at a Standard that it wont be band in other Countries. FPS games tend to have a bit of Gore and Explosions. it will most likely contain Medium to High levels of Violence.

Tell me if that was good or what we were after please

What's the world like? Are there mountains and valleys, little villages, forests and so on? Or is it a plain desert? Something else?

What kind of characters does the player in strategy mode have? What choice of character / weaponry / whatever does the player in FPS mode have? Try to find out whether the game is always fair, independent of the choices.

What's the starting point of the FPS player? How does he know what to do? How does he reach his goal? Same for strategy player.

What's the point of the game? Is there some kind of score to achieve or is it just win / loose? Is there a time limit? Are there different possible winning situations? Which?

What statistical data represents health and power of the FPS player? Same for strategy guy.

What does player A know about player B while playing? Position, power, health, score?

Is there a story? If yes, how do the players experience it? Cutscenes, text scrolling, just an intro / outro, ...?

How does the interface of the player look like and how does it work? Don't say 'the usual', that's too vague. Where are which controls, stat bars, numbers, and so on and how can the player control the game?

How does the network work? Is it Client A -> Big Server <- Client B or Client A <--> Client B? What data is transferred over the network and what data is only on the client?

Try to describe a typical game from start to end. What does this player do, what does the other one do, where does it get really interesting and how does one player win?

----

You can think of a lot of other questions yourself. Take your time thinking about it, there's no point in rushing. Be careful with your choices and always try to make the choice fit in the whole picture.

Compare your game to actual games and figure out whether it's extremely odd and thus weird or just the same old junk. If you're somewhere inbetween, you've got a big chance for a blockbuster.

If you choose a medieval setting, read about it. If you choose to put magic stuff into it, read about it. If you want to let the strategy player use his guys so that he can attack with a big army, read about formations and that stuff.

And always remember that it has to be something you'd enjoy playing. Very important!

thanks, this is much more helpful

and now I will be going to my drawing boards.

World: I kind of want a Varying world. something a Computer can Generate at random and yet at the same time being fair to all players.
the world will always be Divers. there will be loads of Cover and rolling hills that are random, and I will keep the idea of the Square edge of the world thing like in most RTS. how ever you could have a World Generated on the fly.

Characters: I thin the game should have Goods gatherers, Light Infantry (light armor and Equiptment, quick and effective), Snipers (slow aim and shot but Deadly at long range) ,heavy infantry (Powerful guns and powerful armor, Not so mobile) Aircrafts like Bombers, Fighters and Choppers. Light Tanks(half-tracks/Jeeps/small cars with guns/etc) Medium tanks (tanks with standard Boom equipment) Artillery (bad accuracy but keeps the FPS player pinned) Stealth tanks (OMFG where did that come from!) a few Elite solders that have physic abilities, and Dangerous Effects. you could even throw in a Few Demons and Mutants. the last few entries will waste you're lead.

the FPS player could have the Choice of some form of commando, or he could be a Cyborg of some kind, one of the Infantry men of the RTS units.

Weaponry available: first of all, you're standard hand gun, Knife (or maybe a chainsaw) a Shotgun, Uzis, machine gun. Sniper Rifle, Rocket luncher, Gravity Gun, BFG9000 you know the stuff.
Then for the interesting stuff. Invisibility gadget (players cant see you unless you are near a building with Stealth Detection), C4 Charges (blow holes in Buildings or just blow them up completely, or get that Bunker full of Elite bastard with the press of a button), Ion detonator (all mechanical Things and Buildings Frees, cant produce or move tanks, use Turrets until effect ares off), Jet packs (Look I can fly) Holograms (Rippoff of the Holoduke in Duke Nukem: Fool the RTS units of you're were abouts with this Remote Triggered Hologram.) Swat Shield (with this you can block shots from the front until its fully Shot up) Teliportaton gadget (set a spot to go to and then once you are Done where you are or are about to die at the press of a button you will go back to that spot) Spiky things (lay these on the Ground for the unsuspecting Unit and ouches) Smoke bombs (reduces Visibility, causing shots of units to be less accurate) Flash Bomb (blinds all viewers causing RTS players to not be able to act for ten seconds) Steroids (makes Screen all hazy and makes you're Gunfire More rapid and you see things) Petrol and Lighter (when lit leaves a Burning patch that causes damage to all characters and sometimes Lights them on fire, receiving damage and will try to roll around to put it out, FPS player will need to hold down crouch and Left and Right.)
oh and a FPS Player Can Once he Kills all the occupants of a Vehicle use it. But RTS player will always know were it is.

Staring points: The RTS player will start out near a relatively Rich Goods point. the FPS player will respawn at a Drop-ship and Be dropped anywhere out of harms way. once the enemy secures one it will cost him additional Frags to make another one. he can Buy equipment at those Dropships and use Medicine to patch up wounds and Restock on ammo. the Dropships can not take off again and are ther e for the rest of the battle as a FPS "Base".

The point of the game: the FPS player is to Break into the RTS base and Kill the Commanders Avatars wether they be computer Chips, Alien Xenomorphs Hive Node Brains, Dropping a Penny into a Demons gate way chamber etc. the RTS player needs to reduce the Frags of the FPS players to 0 so they cant spawn or create more Dropships.

I was thinking that Units should have a green highlight when you're mouse is oer them, if they are hut with a recoverable wound they have a yellow spot on that limb, if they are bleeding there they get a Red spot etc. there will be a UI saying wether a Unit has ammo and they will go back to base after they run out and then they can return to the front.

Concept of micromanagement: a Thought to Reduce micro management was making a created unit part of a team, rather than commanding one individual. they take cover automatically and Defend themselves and keep an eye out, the RTS player just tells them where to go and to fire in that bush cause it looks Dodgy.

What's going on with Player B?: the FPS player Knows only by what he sees and maybe a short ranged radar. the RTS player only knows what happening from scouts that patrol, loud noises that display a ping on the Minimap (yes, ever RTS has one ) and what He sees in the LOS of the troops (witch will be realistic, none of this see only two feet ahead of you crap )

Story: well you could say FPS guy has been sent on a commando mission to eliminate a commander of some kind. Break into the base and kill his henchmen. you know you're Objectives from the Mission briefing screen.

UI: FPS guy has his ammo, Selected objects, I want to move away from a health system like CS and that, I think there should be a damage tracker that tells you what Limbs have been shot and wether you are bleeding. you can use a Medi Kit to heal that, (oh I think I forgot that in the items, oh well.)

the RTS Guy has a Minimap, Stats window to help get more Detailed Info on a trooper or building, action window (so you can give orders that are not hotkeyed or construct Units if a building is selected) and a Goods window to tell you what is available to the player to create more units.

Networks: net work stuff I have no idea on sorry, I have never thought about that stuff

a typical game: a game would go something like this

1:) RTS player Starts to build what they can quickly and FPS players deploys, gets there gear ready to Scout the land. they have no idea where the RTS player is.

2:) RTS player is gathering what he can and has by now started making structures that are producing units.

the FPS players may have found some valuable ground and Sent some one to scout. or they are Moving to in a team to find higher Ground.

3:) RTS player has now made a lot of weak guys and is now stable in goods income and can work on defenses.

the FPS players will have Found defenable ground to establish a fall back point. or if they are looking for the base they are still Looking

4:) the RTS player has made a War-factory/tank Structure and is
now upgrading/building bigger units. units with a BANG.
He will now be leeching his Coffers with Grunty things.

the FPS players will by now have made a plan and Scouted a fair way.
they will have made a fall back plan if things get too dicey, and they should be finding a RTS scout soon. otherwise they completely missed them and are knocking on there doorstep.

5:) RTS guy should have restocked his supplies and has probably made some Turrets of some kind. he will now be needing to build up more forces. he may get some more expensive units or he may start moving his operations else where.

the FPS players should have by now have met the scout and killed him.
the Player nows where they are roughly now due to the ping. unless they Did a stealthy kill. how ever he may have noticed a missing unit.

6:) it is now time to reenforce the base one last time with last minute defenses.

the FPS team will be scattering to hide.
the RTS player may send a unit of light infantry over to sort them out.

7:) assuming the RTS player went to do an attack on them.
he sends a few troopers out there to attack.

the FPS team may decide to ether attack or they may hide and Pick them off with guns from the foliage. they could Run away and live to fight another day. how ever they need the frags so they attack.

First Drill of attack, one player fires a machine gun at them, hitting a few of them. they turn to attack the bushes.
the other players fire a few to confuse them.
one then uses his sniper rifle and picks them off.
they know full well that the RTS player will be sending reinforcements.

once they have them down they will flee or hold.

8:) the RTS player knows where the FPS players are.
He will teach them a lesson with his new Tanks, an artillery tank and a Flame-thrower tank (no 100% if there will be one, but makes a good story). he rolls them out and Replaces his leaving forces.

the FPS players decide they better get a move on before they are wiped.
they move towards the forests and brag to the RTS player about there new frags.

how ever they soon hear distant machines.
they are in for a fight.

to make it short, let us move forwards in time.
they get to the base with there guns blazing, a few get killed and a few get into the Base, they infiltrate it shooting anyone who is in there.
the RTS player is gathering more troops.

if they wipe they have to start over again, if they Kill the Chip they win.
I make it sound easy for the FPS players but they have a lot of planing to do. the RTS player has to Find there Base, Secure it and Kill them a few times and everyone has to find each other.

I better go to bed soon, i am falling asleep at my Desk.
what do you think?

I think you should play Savage. The original is free.

http://www.s2games.com/savage/

Yeah, play it and sort out what makes your idea different from Savage.

I think if you insert more unique things you have a pretty good base for a full concept.

If I may, here are some ideas that came to my mind:

1. There's a leveling system. Winners of a battle gain XP and their level increases at certain XP amounts. When you level, you choose a bonus.
FPS guys bonusses:
Cooler weapons to buy
Faster movement
Higher jumps
Higher precision while running + shooting
Stronger body
etcpp
RTS guy bonusses:
Higher max population
Stronger units
Faster units
Better minimap
etcpp
If players want to battle each other, they have to be in the same level range: RTS guy's level has to be around the sum of FPS guys' level.
Each player account has an RTS level and an FPS level.

2. The FPS guys have the option to buy a vehicle that can fly. It's pretty expensive, doesn't take much damage and only takes 2 guys. An enhanced flying vehicle also has a turret and is faster. Enhanced vehicles can only be bought by high-level chars.

3. The RTS player can play as an FPS guy for a short amount of time (like 3 minutes), but only so-and-so times per battle (depends on chosen bonusses, see above). To play as an FPS guy, he has to take the position of one of his units - he then gets the stats of this unit. So he hasn't got the advantage of playing as an FPS guy in the first place, but he can lead attacks that way and fight important fights himself. He additionally gets commands like in Operation Flashpoint when he's playing in FPS mode so that he can lead his NPC unit. He can of course only impersonate unit types that have abilities like FPS players, for example scouts or soldiers.

4. Idea 1 leads to a networking design that has a server between the clients. The server manages account stats via a database, builds up the connection between players and transfers all necessary data (like positions, bullet vectors, blabla) to the clients. Players login on the server, get into a chat lobby, create a game, get into the pre-game chat, choose roles, colors, spawn points and so on, say 'I'm ready!' and when everybody is ready, the game starts. It's necessary to think about what data is transferred to assure zero cheating and keep the network load down at the same time while the game is on. Because it's realtime, this is not trivial.

I think that's enough weird stuff to discuss.

First thing, i cant find a mac Download for Savage.

Second and most important point, I like your ideas Rudel_ic. the Leveling system Might be a Bit however Difficult to work with. its not a bad idea but Hard to include in an FPS vs RTS game. than again It could work with the Body System I have thought of for the game. you could also have better AI for the RTS player.

I was also thinking about changeable gravity's.
I also think the actual tanks and Vehicles should have modeled Interiors that can be broken into and stolen. the Tanks also have functioning parts that if are damaged they cant work and Count as a Casualty and then RTS player gets an instant few Units from the wreck depending on the level of damage.

Like the actual body of the people , if you damage Different parts it has a reduction in something. if you blow off a Trek its Immobilized, but can still fire its cannons and Guns. it can be Disembarked for the Crew to be active Infantry.

I also think that if a RTS players Units under fire it will automatically try to save him/her/its self by taking cover and fire back.

and the idea with the RTS player being his owen troops, It may be a liked idea but the thought I had behind it was that the RTS player thinks he is such the man that he can take out an CS player with his C&C units.
It could be included but I don't like the idea personally.

Same here Col, can't find it for Mac anymore
Virtual Programming (lame name) developed Mac Savage and they're still selling it on their site, though Linux & Windows versions are free

Earlier you could get the Mac version from
ftp://www.beckandamesenterprises.com
User Name: Newerth
Password: Savage666
but that was just for a few months. It won't accept the user/pass now.

Fack.