Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?

[Zantalos]

It would be cool if there were a variety of each quick attack, set up like a combo system.

L1 already has a two-hit combo for punches, so I'm sure that's easy enough for David in terms of the coding. Unique animations might be more difficult, assuming you want different combos for each type of attack ("type" referring to the strength of the attack).

The two hit combo is not based on the attack before it, it's not like "puncture" where you slash twice and then stab. I think it only has to do with distance. When you're close you do a body punch, when you're far you do a u punch.

I was thinking more of a tweak of the hit. Body punch, body punch would still be the same except the second body punch would be made with the opposite hand.

[BunnyWithStick]

AUGH, SO MANY REPLIES!

Anyway, from what I've seen, at least the end result of moves means that you can hit more than one enemy with all moves. Then again, as David said this is probably just one enemy being knocked into the other.

[geyser]

Moving this here in case my last edit went unnoticed.

@ Zantalos: Sidestepping would make sense for circling an opponent (or trying to).
That would require some target locking, which could serve other purposes, too.
There's some Nightshade-inspired target locking in Pierre Terdiman's Konoko Payne.
http://www.codercorner.com/Oni.htm

I was thinking more of a tweak of the hit. Body punch, body punch would still be the same except the second body punch would be made with the opposite hand.

That's more or less what I meant by randomizing a set of moves belonging to the same class.
If you rule out repeats, then body punches will indeed be alternatively right and left.

[Ultimatum479]

Body punch, body punch would still be the same except the second body punch would be made with the opposite hand.

...That's exactly what I was talking about.

[Zantalos]

I said it would be cool if there were a variety of combo attacks that were set up in sequence like a combo, like what you would see from the punch, punch, kick combo in oni. Then you said L1 already has a 2 hit combo for punches... that's where I got confused because L1 _doesn't_ have a 2 hit combo for punches. It's just got two kinds of punches that can be made regardless of sequence or anything resembling a combo system, it's solely based on distance and movement. Aren't you talking about... "assuming you want different combos for each type of attack ("type" referring to the strength of the attack)." I don't really know what you're talking about, that was worded funny.

[David]

I recorded a quick playthrough of the first level of Oni to demonstrate the movement and fighting, for anyone who hasn't tried it.

Here is one of fighting two enemies in Lugaru.

[Sage]

I recorded a quick playthrough of the first level of Oni to demonstrate the movement and fighting, for anyone who hasn't tried it.

Am I understanding this right?

From the looks of it, Oni's hand to hand system consists of "punch punch kick" and nothing else...?

[Crill3]

That's just the first level. Punch and Kick is pretty much all she can do then.
She learns new moves as you progress through the game.

[geyser]

David,

I know what you think of the Sledgehammer Heel, but isn't it equally pointless to beat a L1 level on reversals alone?
Besides, that move is easily countered by Oni's harder AI on Ultra Mode, not to mention heavily modded AI behaviour.

For what it's worth:
I hardly use the Sledgehammer Heel at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU4T1Qpu-8U
Neither do other Oni experts such as ZDLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXgjyY7wxv0
Some of us prefer not to play as Konoko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ImX4G-xcs
TWIMC: please refer to the Oni YT group for more instances of actual Oni gameplay

fighting two enemies in Lugaru

Thanks for the video, David. It doesn't look like button-mashing times ragdolling (some weird physics, though; see comment on YT).
Nice display of variety. Still a bit hard to follow (hence enjoy) in real-time, but that's what practice is supposed to bring in L1's case, right?

Like in Oni, one has the option to fight with style. Like in Oni, one doesn't have to do so in order to win a fight.
Unlike in Oni, the output of the context-based system takes much more time to get familiar with than the input.
By that I mean that even though I can perform most of those moves, I can't always tell WTH just happened.
Sometimes I own the AI by sheer accident, or get otherwise unexpected results bacuse of "context shift"

I'm not an Oni vidmaster myself, but if I am to mod L2, I'd better become a L1 vidmaster first. Point taken
So... see you in a few months then. After all, I think I already have my answer to the topic-starting question.
"Can a ninja make a shuriken so big even he cannot throw it? - The answer to that is easily... maybe?"

@ Zantalos (assuming you weren't replying to U479):

Aren't you talking about... "assuming you want different combos for each type of attack ("type" referring to the strength of the attack)." I don't really know what you're talking about, that was worded funny.

If you have two kinds of punches available for the same range and strength (a left one and a right one), then the engine could/would/should alternate them at random, so as to avoid a recurrent pattern. If you always start a combo with a left punch, a real-life opponent would no doubt take advantage of that.

[Zantalos]

@ Zantalos (assuming you weren't replying to U479):

Aren't you talking about... "assuming you want different combos for each type of attack ("type" referring to the strength of the attack)." I don't really know what you're talking about, that was worded funny.

If you have two kinds of punches available for the same range and strength (a left one and a right one), then the engine could/would/should alternate them at random, so as to avoid a recurrent pattern. If you always start a combo with a left punch, a real-life opponent would no doubt take advantage of that.

Sorry I didn't quote, that was referring to U426. That's exactly what I was talking about though, like instead of doing three round house kicks on three enemies the exact same way, like spin stop, spin stop, spin stop, Turner could just continue to spin like Tony Jaa and do three roundhouse kicks without stopping momentum in between, and this would only happen if you're clicking really fast three times, not holding down the mouse.


The point in those videos is that in Lugaru you have to show style, you cannot win every single battle with one exact same move sequence. If you tried just using the body punch, or just using the round house kick, the enemies in Lugaru will counter you much more easily. But in Oni you can do one unstoppable move for every enemy and they will never catch on or have any way to reverse it, block and then punch, punch, kick combo. Also, since the moves are context based in L1, they make sense how you're hitting them. When they're lying on the ground you soccer kick them and this happens because Turner knows what he's doing, but in Oni you have moves that are not mapped out in relation to the enemy at all so you have weird moves like leg sweeping, or using a spin kick to hit someone lying on the ground when they really aren't made for it.

[Zaphon]

Quite a bit of new Lugaru 2 information in this topic. [borat]Very niice![/borat]
Seems that if it goes as planned, it'll be even more awesome than previously assumed. (If that is even possible)

I don't think I'd like "Oni-like melee" in Lugaru 2.
I'm not sure where you're (geyser) coming from when you claim
Lugaru's context-sensitive combat to be "less immersive", to me it's really intense and a lot of fun.
If you play for a little while to get properly into the game, and you learn all the cool stuff you can do,
I think you'd enjoy it a bit more.
But uh, if you don't like it then I guess... you don't like it.
It's strange to me though. ;p

[geyser]

The point in those videos is that in Lugaru you have to show style, you cannot win every single battle with one exact same move sequence.

I've seen evidence to the contrary on YT: a 100%-reversal challenge, for instance. Same as 100%-PPK in Oni.
Wall jumps seem to systematically take enemies off their guard, too. Not sure about rabbit kicks and such.

But in Oni you can do one unstoppable move for every enemy and they will never catch on or have any way to reverse it, block and then punch, punch, kick combo.

That is not true. All but the most basic enemies have a good chance of blocking one of the opening punches of PPK and throw you before you get to the kick.
Also, AI melee skills were deliberately downgraded in Oni. Cranking up parameters like blocking and dodging skills, removing pauses... that easily makes up for hard enemies.
I don't think any combos in Oni are absolutely unblockable. It all depends on the AI's skills. PPK's kick is often blocked, and I've even had my Rising Fury or Devil Spin Kick blocked by a random thug.

Also, since the moves are context based in L1, they make sense how you're hitting them. When they're lying on the ground you soccer kick them and this happens because Turner knows what he's doing,

I might reply that if Turner knows so much, why does he need me in the first place? But this thread has gotten way too ugly already... I apologize to you all and I suggest to morally close it.
Oni is unrealistic by design, so it's OK to have an arsenal of flashy moves that look good out of context, and vidmaster style generally allows one to aptly match combos to the context if any.
Some of the realism in L1 I was able to appreciate right away (e.g., blood). Other aspects I have yet to get used to. That includes the "smart" melee. Hence the s##tstorm above

[Ultimatum479]

Rabbit kicks are quite the opposite; they're probably the most easily reversed move in Lugaru if you spam 'em, and they hurt you if you miss (unless you handspring out of the fall) as well as causing you _serious_ pain if they're reversed. Wall kicks, however, tend to throw enemies off quite a bit, although they too hurt you a lot if they're reversed.

Geyser, Oni _does_ have unstoppable moves of broken pwnage: throws. In Lugaru, throws are limited in their use, being only reversals of enemy attacks, and during throws you can be hit by other enemies -- or even by the body of the very enemy you're throwing if you throw him badly, such as into the wall right next to you. Most importantly, throws themselves can be "reversed", allowing the victim to land relatively safely and take reduced damage or none at all. In Oni, you're completely invincible to melee attacks while throwing, and there's no way to escape. Weapons aside (sure, you could be shot out of a throw with a Mercury Bow, but other than that), throws are horribly broken in Oni. Massive melees tend to devolve into simple throw-spamming to become almost constantly invulnerable, which is doubly ugly to watch since throws, as I showed earlier, tend to start getting very glitchy when you link three or more together without giving Konoko a chance to return to her normal standing position.

[geyser]

I said what I said: "unblockable combos", not "unstoppable moves".
Throws are indeed Oni's weak spot (what it easily gets flamed for).
We thought of implementing "reversals" into Oni but it's kinda hard.
First, reversals don't make sense for most throws (backbreaker, hm?).
Second, Oni is not realistic to start with, so why the heck bother...
We did think of actual reversals (not just escapes/recoveries).
But those would require much more control over Oni's runtime...

Making throws interruptible is fairly easy, but it too requires extra work.
Specifically, something has to be done about the character being thrown.
Scripting and binary hacking is not enough there; EXE patching needed.
We might get around to fixing throws in the next few months, though...

As for massive melee, the challenge for a vidmaster is exactly this:
not to indulge in throws and to get the best of combos instead.

When and if there is multiplayer, we might disable throws altogether.
It's a poor man's fix, but it would help to concentrate on the rest...

EDIT:
@ Zantalos: Thinking of how Oni 2 would/should look and feel, I dreamt up a gameplay philosophy very similar to Lugaru's before I became aware of David's project.
I was very excited to find an implementation of the kind of thing I had in mind. And then I was disappointed to find that it worked out differently from what I expected.
That's not the end of the story, though. The reason why I came here is that I'm still very much interested in whatever Lugaru (2) has to offer, gameplay-wise. Honest.

[Ultimatum479]

Taking throws out of Oni entirely would be _such_ a lame solution. v_V