Wolfire Games Forums

Mm, it's David

Wonder how inventory will effect combat. Carrying a heavy load might make you more prone to use tackling moves when moving at your enemy fast because you can't manuever as well.

Oh wait, we talked about this didn't we? You drop your pack and then fight.

Still, I wonder how that 3d pack system is going to work...

EDIT: Hmm, now that I look at this post, it's rather off topic. Disregard as necessary.

Hm. Totally unlike me: wonder where I got the "no" videos from... Musta searched for "Lugaru 2" or something
Before I check them all out (the good, the bad and the ugly), maybe you could direct me to the anthological ones?
(more specifically, I'm looking for a group fight that doesn't look like button-mashing times ragdolling )

What I mean by strategy and tactics is that first of all you never start a level in a battle, so you can always choose where, when, and who to fight. For example, you might want to take down the most heavily armed enemy first, and then use his weapon to kill everyone else.

Heck, that much I know... It's written all over the README. I even got a feel for it in the demo
Still, I was under the impression that a major component of tactics (and strategy) was Mother Luck.

This is similar to what I am planning, though instead of randomly choosing moves, it would choose the one that is most appropriate. For example, running and then pressing 'attack' will always perform a kick, but at close range it would be a knee attack, and at longer range it could be more like a shuffling side kick.

Well, if a character has "more than enough" animations in store, you could always have two or three "equally appropriate" variants to pick from in a given context.
That's what I meant. It might be a plus if a close-range punch doesn't always look the same way even if it's basically the same type of move.

I was thinking of using it as a 'grasp' key, to pick up weapons, grab ledges, or grab enemies. You could use shift to dodge an attack, and then grab for a reversal if you want to, or do something else.

I thought it was OK to have "grab" on the keyboard. Oni's "Q" works fine.
Interestingly, I had the very same idea for Oni 2 gameplay: a "grab" key that would work for anything from weapons to props to walls to enemies.
Whenever your hands are free and there's something within reach: snap!
Likewise, the "throw" key could be generalized. Could be the same as the "grab" key and/or combined with the punch strength meter (or it could have a meter of its own). Aimed throwing would justify the choice of a mouse button over the keyboard; not so sure about grabbing, again.

Erm, BTW, a primary idea behind Oni 2's gameplay was that Konoko would (re)develop "Butterfly Effects" that would justify ridiculous amounts of enemies fought in completely insane ways. Not unlike Crackdown.

@ Sage: And if you carried something heavy, you could throw/roll it at enemies (or away from enemies if it's an empty gun they have ammo for). Or straight up: if you're a seriously overpowered Konoko, you can (almost) put things into orbit.

@ David again: Nice to hear L2 will rock. Too early for an ETA, I assume?
If you're still laying out the basics of melee, that could take some time...
BTW, whenever you release Phoenix/L2 for beta testing... count me in

Yeah, I've always thought one of the coolest parts of a physics-based game, especially ragdoll, should be throwing. With a grab button, you could grab a target (enemy, improvised weapon, etc) and move the mouse, ie. pick up a tree branch, swing the mouse so you smash someone in the head with it, then swing it and release the grab button in mid-swing so that the branch flies through the air and pwns someone farther away. That kind of intuitive throwing system is vaguely reminiscent of the grenades in Red Steel, actually.

Anyway, geyser, after reading your last post...You don't have the full version of Lugaru? You really haven't seen any group fighting, then. In Lugaru, Turner uses reversal throws much like Konoko uses her normal throws in Oni: to throw people into each other, and it's much more satisfying with the ragdoll physics. ^_^ Lugaru is quite fun in group combat because of the fun involved in making people hit each other; enemies will always hurt each other if you throw 'em at each other with enough momentum (such as with a spin kick or leg cannon, or even a leg sweep), unlike in Oni where enemies cannot be used as projectiles against their friends unless you've specifically used a throw on them -- no matter their momentum. Get the full version of Lugaru and then come back.

geyser wrote:meter

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...

Anyways, perhaps this would mean you can throw rocks or throw sand in their eyes and kick em' in the groin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

About the fact you said "too many animation"

I've got three words for you Pro Cedural Animation

did I get that right? That is three words right? Procedural Anim Ation

lols

Also, I wonder if soft body physics will be used in any way.

You don't have the full version of Lugaru? You really haven't seen any group fighting, then.

Seen three on one. Didn't enjoy it. Didn't buy L1 by fear of more of the same. Probably won't buy it at this point. Might. Probably won't. Might...
Too busy with Oni ATM. Not playing games in general (not even Oni). And frankly, the L1 videos I've seen so far are not what I'd call arresting

Anyway, I'd appreciate if I could check out group fighting recorded by a L1 expert. If I tried it myself I'd pe pwned hence unfavorably biased.

In Lugaru, Turner uses reversal throws much like Konoko uses her normal throws in Oni: to throw people into each other, and it's much more satisfying with the ragdoll physics.

Basic ragdolling looks terrible. Much worse than canned knockdowns. IMO.

BTW, we've added splash damage to Oni's knockdowns, so now you can get Domino effects galore

...I don't like you.

It's cool that Lugaru isn't your cup of tea... but why come to what is essentially a conglomeration of die hard Lugaru fans to advertise that you don't like it?

I hope you're not surprised when people don't jump at the opportunity to personally create a video for you demonstrating that Lugaru group fighting doesn't suck.

He didn't. He came to post what he did in the first post of this thread, and the usual Wolfire-forum-ness brought that out. Partially my fault.

Anywho. Try group fighting on easy if you're worried about being pwnt; it uses the same kind of fighting tactics except that it's much slower and the enemies have less health.

...Wow. UT479 is a decent person sometimes. Who knew? Oh, ad I think that pre scripted moves look worse than procedural animation. you get bored of seeing the same two or three animations over and over again...

Err, that Team Arena script for Oni was made largely by him, and I just downloaded it and it's insanely fun. So, yes, I'm being nice.

And, yeah, they do. You haven't seen any of the Lugaru ragdoll collisions yet, have you, geyser? *sigh* I guess I'll have to try to record a movie if no one else will, but my comp probably won't be able to handle a movie with any sort of viewable FPS.

Ultimatum479 wrote:Yeah, I've always thought one of the coolest parts of a physics-based game, especially ragdoll, should be throwing. With a grab button, you could grab a target (enemy, improvised weapon, etc) and move the mouse, ie. pick up a tree branch, swing the mouse so you smash someone in the head with it, then swing it and release the grab button in mid-swing so that the branch flies through the air and pwns someone farther away. That kind of intuitive throwing system is vaguely reminiscent of the grenades in Red Steel, actually.

Have you tried Hammerfall yet? I am hoping to have some of the similar physics-based feel to the Lugaru combat using procedural animation and more dynamic combat controls.

geyser wrote:Seen three on one. Didn't enjoy it. Didn't buy L1 by fear of more of the same. Probably won't buy it at this point. Might. Probably won't. Might... Too busy with Oni ATM. Not playing games in general (not even Oni). And frankly, the L1 videos I've seen so far are not what I'd call arresting Anyway, I'd appreciate if I could check out group fighting recorded by a L1 expert. If I tried it myself I'd pe pwned hence unfavorably biased. ... Basic ragdolling looks terrible. Much worse than canned knockdowns. IMO.

If you don't play Lugaru long enough to get used to the controls, then honestly you don't have much grounds to talk about it. Someone could just as well say they don't like Oni because they tried it for a few minutes and didn't like that the jumping and shooting are different from Tomb Raider.

I like how in Lugaru there is no 4 punch combo that hits everyone in range, and then ends with a hammer kick that does area effect splash damage. Even in smaller terms, like a roundhouse kick that drops everyone it touches to the floor. The moves I want are those you'll see in a good martial arts movie, like The Protector. The moves don't have to be realistic to perform (the capoeira fighter or the flying knee strike), but they at least make sense. There's no super kick he does that hits multiple enemies at once, if he wants to spin kick multiple enemies, he just keeps spin kicking every enemy.

I'm not sure if there's such a thing as real-world fighting, or if all there is is stunts and video games. Do martial arts apply anywhere?
Anyway, it still feels strange to me that an average player in L1 should have absolutely precise "muscle memory" and never miss a hit.
More fundamentally, the "automatic" philosophy takes some interactivity away. It's far from a slideshow with a big red button, but still...

The point is that the average player in L1 doesn't have absolutely precise muscle memory, if you put in non-context based attacks players are just going to end up hitting nothing but thin air more than half the time.
The point is that Turner and his enemies know what they're doing and have these reactions. They know when they are in attack range and in what direction they should be attacking.

Turner does have a non-context based attack though, the rabbit kick (leg cannon). The rabbit kick can be made in any direction, at any time (but the level has to have hostiles), and it can hit multiple enemies at once, two for each leg.

I'm liking this strength determining idea, holding down for a strong hit and clicking for a faster weak attack. It would be cool if there were a variety of each quick attack, set up like a combo system. For instance, you're doing quick clicking and this is making you pull body punches off one after the other, instead of doing the same body punch over and over again, when you do your first click it should be like normal, right hand punch to the lungs, then with your second he does a left hand punch, then you punch him with your elbow, or maybe this time you didn't quick click, you held it down so you ended up doing a reverse roundhouse kick. The point is that hits strung one after the other are different, instead of body punch, body punch, round house kick, it's body punch right, low uppercut punch left, and then you do a back kick using the same momentum. The point is that your next attack is based on what attack you just performed last so it looks like a super smooth combo, but it controls perfectly like L1.

Back peddling is going to be in Lugaru 2, watch it in the procedural animation video. Sidestepping is kind of pointless for general movement, if you're going to move left, you might as well face left. For quick movements however, sidestepping should be put in to give you new kinds of attacks. Kind of like, when you're fighting someone you can sidestep to his left so that when you attack while doing that, instead of doing a running kick, you do a side step knee attack. Sidestepping should be there but brief, it should be like you sidestep for one second while looking where the camera is pointed (where the enemy would be) and then you start full on running as you continue sidestepping in that direction, much faster now.

I think it is already there, though much briefer, you can sidestep, and then your rolling will make you tuck and dive sideways in the direction rather then just rolling forward in the direction.

I'm liking this multiple range attacks. If you're far away you do a shuffle side kick, when you're close you do a knee hit, it's a really good idea.

Having the right mouse button as a "grasp" key, hands down I fully support that. Many of us have mapped out "q" to mouse button 2 already but a full on grasp key for enemies, objects, and ledges, that's sounds awesome. It should be its own thread.

Downloading Hammerfall now.

Just felt like mentioning yet again that ragdoll physics throws pwn. See that guy at the bottom of the stairs? Yeah, I'm doing a backbreaker on him. From the top of the stairs. Right. Not an uncommon occurence. Not so in Lugaru. ^^

Zantalos wrote:It would be cool if there were a variety of each quick attack, set up like a combo system.

L1 already has a two-hit combo for punches, so I'm sure that's easy enough for David in terms of the coding. Unique animations might be more difficult, assuming you want different combos for each type of attack ("type" referring to the strength of the attack).

Zantalos wrote:the rabbit kick (leg cannon)

Leg cannon. Leg ****ing Cannon.

Excuse me.

He didn't. He came to post what he did in the first post of this thread, and the usual Wolfire-forum-ness brought that out. Partially my fault.

Thanks U479. I wouldn't say the last few posts are anyone's fault... they just happened.

I'm not a gamer (more like a post-developer). And I've been under Oni's bad influence for quite some time...
I've been having a critical look at Oni's animation system for so long that I can't help being equally critical of L1's.
"Even" David admits that L1's fighting system is lacking. All I did was try and formulate my view of the problem(s).
Also, it's enough to read the previous posts a bit to see that I didn't come here as a whiner/flamer/whatever...

I'm not much of a diplomat, that's for sure. Cope with me if you can.

Procedural animation VS canned anims. Oni has 500+ anims per character and a flawless movement scheme.
I simply haven't seen a game where basic movements are as fluid and natural-looking as in Oni. That includes L1.
As for combat moves, there are dozens per character. Yes, they're canned, but they look predictably good.
Procedural animation looks very nice. Sometimes. Like ragdolling. And sometimes it looks random. Or worse.
For the sake of the argument, let's say I've never seen it look "worse" in L1. But, not very nice, either.
I'm not saying very nice reversals didn't happen to me. I just couldn't identify them as such
The problem is that things happen so fast that I hardly have the time to appreciate the animation.
I face an enemy, I click... and the next thing I know he's flying across the screen. WTH happened?

@ U479: Don't bother recording something new if there is something already showcased on YT that makes your point.
If you mean two ragdolls colliding in midair, then no, I probably haven't encountered such situations. Show me (please).
My general grudge against ragdolling is that ragdolling characters tend to look like rag dolls, not characters
EDIT: But it's true that Oni would be a lot better with some IK. A very commonplace Oni flame, that one

There's more to the Oni community modding than OTA. Not much, but worth checking out. The Developer Mode, for instance.

EDIT2:

If you don't play Lugaru long enough to get used to the controls, then honestly you don't have much grounds to talk about it.

I'm sorry if I got carried away on L1 gameplay, and I'll be coming off it any time now.
I got used to the controls enough to clear the demo (and demo challenges) in one go.
It's not so much about the practical aspects. It's the immersive aspects I had trouble with.

Someone could just as well say they don't like Oni because they tried it for a few minutes and didn't like that the jumping and shooting are different from Tomb Raider.

Hey now, just who could we be talking about?
BTW, I thoroughly checked out Tomb Raider Legend (demo)...
and found a few unforgiveable gameplay and graphical flaws