Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Anything related to Wolfire Games and/or its products
User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:29 am

Endoperez wrote:
I disagree with a few points. Can anti-GG be a side when it has no organization, forums, leaders or goals? When the effects of harassment are visible does it matter that it's caused by just a minority?
Feminists discredit all quote on quote "Misogynists" by saying that the radicals are in the minority.

Yet, GamerGaters can't say the same thing.

Whenever a feminazi doxxes or hacks someone it's discredited by those people being in the VAST minority.

Yet, EnterElysium (Famous YouTuber and good guy) blamed all of GG when a girl got doxxed 30 minutes after posting something against GG as it is now, despite the fact most GGers were equally disgusted and wanted nothing to do with such people.

Stranger
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Stranger » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:10 am

Well neither side has much organization, which is probably the root of some of the problem. It's easy to shift blame when where you're shifting it to and from is unclear. It makes it so you can say that the actions of a few belligerents are not representative of your side, or that they are representative of the other.

What I think we're really discussing here is the idea of guilt by association. Something compounded by a lot of confusion on what people think these associations mean. It seems that the reason for anyone in this to be angry at the other side is based on the belief that the other side favors harassing people. Something that all rational people involved will condemn, because, well, that's what rational people do.

I will say that the anti-gg side is more nebulous than the pro-gg side, if that's what you're getting at, in that it is more of a reactionary side.

The whole situation is a clusterfuck of misdirected anger, because there's too many people with other agendas that they're trying to force into the issue. And too many people assuming their opponents have other agendas. I think we can agree that harassing, threatening, and doxxing people is a dick move, regardless of the stance of the individual being harassed. And I think we can also agree that journalism should have ethical conduct, regardless of the political aims of the journalists and publications.

If we could dismiss all the people who want other things out of this, we could make some progress. All the people who are in this to paint industries, identities, and individuals as positive or negative for political reasons, all the people trying to force ideologies, all the people who seem incapable of rational discussion and think single label sums up a person's entire viewpoint and think that's a good reason to hate them.

Harassment and ethics are not controversial topics in any sane discussion. If we could ditch the arguments about who's holier than who, we could get to real questions. Like what do journalistic ethics really mean? What are ethical and unethical behaviors? How do we qualify these behaviors? How do we hold people accountable for unethical behavior? These aren't necessarily easy questions, but they are actual questions, not just a lot of anger and blame. Having sides based on this arbitrary shit is only poisoning the potential for real debate.

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Korban3 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:14 am

I really wish both sides would pull their heads out of their asses and then headbutt each other to metaphorical death. I'm sick of their bullshit.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:58 am

Stranger wrote: Harassment and ethics are not controversial topics in any sane discussion. If we could ditch the arguments about who's holier than who, we could get to real questions. Like what do journalistic ethics really mean? What are ethical and unethical behaviors? How do we qualify these behaviors? How do we hold people accountable for unethical behavior? These aren't necessarily easy questions, but they are actual questions, not just a lot of anger and blame.
Those seem like theoretical questions, important ones, but hard to approach. Worded like that, we could be debating philosophical theories in a classroom, and all that gets you is a grade. IMO some context is needed. Are we talking about behaviour of journalists, specifically, or Internet etiquette in general? Are we talking about ethics, or problems caused by unethical practices/habits?

I'm up for a discussion, although since I'm on a phone long replies are gonna take ages.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:18 pm

I'm still surprised this is the discussion you're having.

The vast (I mean VAST) majority of comments on the Haphead video were about the lack of updates and how they're now asking people to donate money to a kickstarter while a game is still not developed. It goes to show that this community just LOVES to distract people from the real point with so called "Intelligent" discussions with the sole purpose of seeming far more intelligent then the person you're arguing with just so you can feel better about yourself (See, the This War of Mine discussion and the ending of the Hatred discussion) while defending your game to the death. Despite the fact that there is obvious bias in play (People would bitch about months between changelogs on any other game except Overgrowth).

The criticism deflection, blatant bias and obvious pretentiousness is one reason I'd say to avoid the community entirely. Other then the slow updates and toxic 4Chan-like people in the randomness forum (With a suitable supplement of feminazi and pretentiousness), if that hadn't warded you off already.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:24 pm

:D
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: toxic 4Chan-like people in the randomness forum (With a suitable supplement of feminazi and pretentiousness), if that hadn't warded you off already.
I agree that people here are sometimes a bit single-minded in defending OG's long dev cycle, I think the single biggest problem with it is lack of communication. Ironic, since communication would slow development!

I also agree on the toxicity, but in my case I see you as the biggest aggravator of that (and you probably see me as a pretensious feminazi)... It can be hard to share space with people with opposing views, as I've found out.

Do you have any suggestions on how to make the forum more welcoming? I'd love to see this become more active again.

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Korban3 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:37 pm

tfw this forum has never felt like 4chan at all

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:39 pm

Korban3 wrote:tfw this forum has never felt like 4chan at all
4chan talks about ponies! Oh. I guess you are right. :(

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Korban3 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:43 pm

we can totes talk about ponies here, but all the toxicity bullshit is getting old.
Pheonix is being toxic about other people and Endo is being reasonable, but his simply existing is enough to rustle Pheonix's jimmies.
Meanwhile, it doesn't fucking matter. Everyone should chill out and get back to being normal people. Y'all have so much time to argue, why don't you go make mods instead?

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:53 pm

Korban3 wrote:Y'all have so much time to argue, why don't you go make mods instead?
No PC at home ATM, and I've got less free time too, so I'm all talk and nothing productive until Christmas at least. :(

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Korban3 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:57 pm

Time wouldn't be better spent brainstorming for a big mod idea, or writing up a paper draft for a new game? I mean fuck, anything other than a lot of this back and forth shit, since it gains no ground on either side.

Same for you Pheonix. I ain't paying favorites or discriminating, y'all can go fuck yourselves equally. The bullshit is more uninviting than either perception of the forum ever will be.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:01 pm

Endoperez wrote::D
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: toxic 4Chan-like people in the randomness forum (With a suitable supplement of feminazi and pretentiousness), if that hadn't warded you off already.
I agree that people here are sometimes a bit single-minded in defending OG's long dev cycle, I think the single biggest problem with it is lack of communication. Ironic, since communication would slow development!

I also agree on the toxicity, but in my case I see you as the biggest aggravator of that (and you probably see me as a pretensious feminazi)... It can be hard to share space with people with opposing views, as I've found out.
The people who want more communication simply want some perception of updates or progress. It takes maybe a day to catch some screenies and write a short blog post about what you're doing. And it doesn't even have to be consistent. I'm sure they're not working all day every day, why not write such blogs when they're not doing anything special?

And no I don't view you as a pretentious feminazi. You're one or the other at any given moment.

Do you have any suggestions on how to make the forum more welcoming? I'd love to see this become more active again.
Until people can stop being assholes and people can stop bitching about people being assholes then nothing can happen. Really though, the forums are fine as they are. Not much is gonna change that.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:08 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote::D
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: toxic 4Chan-like people in the randomness forum (With a suitable supplement of feminazi and pretentiousness), if that hadn't warded you off already.
I agree that people here are sometimes a bit single-minded in defending OG's long dev cycle, I think the single biggest problem with it is lack of communication. Ironic, since communication would slow development!

I also agree on the toxicity, but in my case I see you as the biggest aggravator of that (and you probably see me as a pretensious feminazi)... It can be hard to share space with people with opposing views, as I've found out.
The people who want more communication simply want some perception of updates or progress. It takes maybe a day to catch some screenies and write a short blog post about what you're doing. And it doesn't even have to be consistent. I'm sure they're not working all day every day, why not write such blogs when they're not doing anything special?

And no I don't view you as a pretentious feminazi. You're one or the other at any given moment.
I think communication is more important than 15% more dev time. However, communication is away from dev, because they're both OG related work, and indies should have non-work time just as other people do. With work time being constant, any communication is less progress, and I totally understand that sometimes you just wanna push on and make games.


.
Do you have any suggestions on how to make the forum more welcoming? I'd love to see this become more active again.
Until people can stop being assholes and people can stop bitching about people being assholes then nothing can happen. Really though, the forums are fine as they are. Not much is gonna change that.
:(

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:22 pm

Korban3 wrote:Time wouldn't be better spent brainstorming for a big mod idea, or writing up a paper draft for a new game?
Two projects underway alrwady (yay I'm making games! Mobile, rather casual, still fun to do) so no paper protos or big mod projects... But I did make a Christmas mod idea thread on Randomness.

So, ideas welcome there :)

Stranger
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 10:16 pm

Re: Look at the comments on the Haphead video!

Post by Stranger » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:15 am

Hey sorry for the lack of response. The questions were really meant to be theoretical, I was just sort of using them as examples. I could find more specific ones that are concerns, but I think I've already made it look like I'm more invested than I really am.

I find ethics to be an interesting topic, and certainly important, but as for games journalism itself, I don't actually follow it much or find it all that useful. I suppose the integrity of the field has something to do with that, but it's more an issue of my not caring what most gaming journalists have to say. Most of it simply isn't all that interesting.

Post Reply