Phoenix Engine licensing for other indie developers?

[XerxesQ]

Before anyone replies with something to the effect of "DUDE SLOW DOWN THEY HAVENT EVEN FINISHED OVERGROWTH HOLY OMNIDIRECTIONAL JESUS", this is pure speculation about possibilities for the future. You know, like science fiction, except with less spaceships and more missing semicolon errors.

Considering the fact that Overgrowth's Phoenix engine, assuming we're still calling it that, is being designed with all the technical awesomeness anyone could reasonably desire AND is cross-platform, and the fact that Overgrowth modding will be a Javascripty, LittleBigPlanety bundle of user-friendliness that would cause Aza Raskin to orgasm, it seems like a lot of people are going develop the skillset and interest to make their own full games with Phoenix. Furthermore, some people might want to try and sell these games, so they can make their living from game development and grow wonderful John-like beards which would be unacceptable in many corporate environments.

But most small-time developers don't have an enormous amount of money, so the idea of licensing Source code of an Unreal quality is a far Cry...Engine. But perhaps, rising from the ashes of their game development dreams, could be...okay, I'll stop.

Anyway, is it possible that some hyperambitious Overgrowth mod-makers seeking greater things might be able to license the engine commercially for less than the cost of a Lamborghini? When it's done, of course.

[Endoperez]

Phoenix Engine shouldn't be cheap just because it's made by five guys, but the mods for this mod-friendly game could become distinct enough to be sold on their own.

[TheBigCheese]

Yes. Good to see someone backing me up on this.

I posted something similar asking about whether the Source code will be released in some form to modders, but they seemed at the time to be against it.


I still believe that no amount of Javascript would be able to have the flexibility as rough and dirty C++ would.

Send an email to Valve, and ask them what they went though and how they release their engine to modders without copyright infringements.

The way I think they do it is to keep a few of the core files precompiled, so that the mods only run with a Source game already installed. Do the same thing here, or just email Valve. Probably a better solution.
http://www.valvesoftware.com/contact.html

[XerxesQ]

Phoenix Engine shouldn't be cheap just because it's made by five guys, but the mods for this mod-friendly game could become distinct enough to be sold on their own.

But selling those mods on their own would no doubt require the ability to compile a new binary that doesn't depend on Overgrowth. Unless it would depend on Overgrowth, in which case that's not exactly an attractive business model for a variety of reasons. But creating a standalone game would probably require access to the source code.

I agree, I don't think the engine should be cheap because five guys are making it. I think it would be nice if it were reasonably priced because it's likely to be used by two-man teams. Personally, I'd be ecstatic if the whole thing was LGPL'd after Overgrowth was released, but I figured my usual copyleft hippieism would be too radical in this case, and probably be flamebait for people claiming to be deeply concerned about Wolfire's financial interests. On a related note, this post is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0.

Anyway, I think making Phoenix easily accessible to other developers can only increase the amount of indie games that actually get finished and released, and that can't be a bad thing.

[TheBigCheese]

But selling those mods on their own would no doubt require the ability to compile a new binary that doesn't depend on Overgrowth. Unless it would depend on Overgrowth, in which case that's not exactly an attractive business model for a variety of reasons. But creating a standalone game would probably require access to the source code.

That's what happens for most Source mods that become a game. Once they get enough support and fans as a mod, they liscense the engine and are no longer required to have HL2 as a constraint.

See 'The Ship' for an example of a sourcemod turned into a full scale game.

Another option would be to take a cut of any profits made from selling licensed games from the Phoenix Engine. In that way the license could be much cheaper, but Wolfire would still receive profit.

Admin input!

[Jeff]

Yeah, that would be great! I'd love to see people using the Phoenix Engine, assuming we don't need to provide support. If we enter into a contract where we need to teach another company how to use the engine versus making more original games, then it's of course a no go.

In response to TheBigCheese, I am pretty sure Valve releases SDKs versus open sourcing their entire games. Good luck emailing Valve, by the way. It took us a several months and ~5 unanswered emails to get a response about Overgrowth and Steam from them.

[TheBigCheese]

Good luck emailing Valve, by the way. It took us a several months and ~5 unanswered emails to get a response about Overgrowth and Steam from them.

Nah. I figured out the trick. You send it with
(Please Read)
as part of the subject line. Works like a charm with a 50% answering rate. Hey, it's better than nothing!

As for documentation for the engine if released. It would be fairly simple just to create a wiki site that people could add on to when they want to.

Still, either some of the source files or an SDK would be nice. Something more than JavaScript that could be used to actually modify the game engine.

[Skofo]

I'd be ecstatic if the whole thing was LGPL'd after Overgrowth was released

Listen to this man.

[XerxesQ]

That's what happens for most Source mods that become a game. Once they get enough support and fans as a mod, they liscense the engine and are no longer required to have HL2 as a constraint.

See 'The Ship' for an example of a sourcemod turned into a full scale game.

The problem with that is the fact that lots of fans is not always equal to $100,000 and legal incorporation, which I believe is the usual requirement for licensing Source. I'm not positive about those numbers, but considering they discuss the price under NDA and tend to license it to large corporations, it's probably up there.

[TheBigCheese]

The problem with that is the fact that lots of fans is not always equal to $100,000 and legal incorporation, which I believe is the usual requirement for licensing Source. I'm not positive about those numbers, but considering they discuss the price under NDA and tend to license it to large corporations, it's probably up there.

Oh yes, it's horribly expensive. I honestly have no clue where they made that kind of money as a mod. Probably from an outside source or possibly a loan.