Overgrowth thoughts

[PetzI]

I only started following Overgrowth's developments like 2 or 3 weeks ago, and have now sprinted through all the ModDB posts. I'll start reading the blog posts since the first one now, but first I'd like to give my opinion on some of the matters the ModDB posts discussed, and give some of my own ideas. Good work on "What do you think about this thing?" at the each of each post.

Dismemberment
It occured to me that it might be fun to have dismemberment in Overgrowth. I tried to imagine a version of Lugaru where if you killed an enemy with a certain attack of the sword for example, his head would be sliced off, and other forms of more brutal violence. Maybe even with strong attacks from the stick weapon. But it just didn't seem to fit in somehow... I think you should consider this, but I don't think it would work that well in the main game. But I also think it could be nice as an unlockable feature or something like that. Not sure if it's worth the trouble, really just depends on how easy it is to do. But wouldn't it be awesome to end a fight by sinking your axe into a rabbit's skull, or slicing a large wound across a wolf's torso?

Flying
One of the things that made me laugh in Lugaru was that rabbits would often show flying abilities well-beyond the ones a rabbit should have. Particularly when another rabbit would kick them and they would ragdollidly be sent flying. This was funny and felt gratifying, but was pretty unrealistic. So I was wondering how much this will be preserved in Overgrowth. If you make it too realistic, it will lose the charm Lugaru had of being able to kick an opponent's body at 50km/h into another opponent and knock him down, or to watch yourself ragdoll and go int othe sun after being bashed in the face by a wolf. But these things made the game look unprofessional and unrefined. This will require a lot of thought at balance from you.

Achievements
Please do NOT make achievements like "kill 100 enemies in total", or "complete the game". These are things that are either rewarding by themselves, or totally random milestones that a player either achieves through playing the game normaly or grinds for them. Achievements should be for stunts, things the player pulls off, some harder, some easier. It's easier to explain by giving you a list of examples for achievements in Lugaru:

Good Achievements:
- Sneak-killing an enemy
- Kill an enemy by slitting his throat ("Puncture" reversal, for instance)
- Crack a wall by smashing an enemy into it
- Collide in mid-air with an enemy and both get knocked down (happened to me once)
- Do a Leg Cannon
- Complete the Campaign without using weapons
- Make an enemy catch on fire
- Kill an enemy with a knife throw

Bad Achievements:
- Complete the Campaign
- Kill 1 enemies
- Kill 10 enemies
- Kill 100 enemies
- Kill 1000 enemies
- Retrieve your armor
- Die for the first time
- Complete all the challenges
- Kill a wolf
- Kill a rabbit
- Get every other achievement

Multiplayer
I was surprised to see the Server Browser UI post, because I was really convinced this was going to be solely Single Player. I wanted to know how much you plan to develop Multiplayer, what we should expect from it. My advice is to focus on Single Player as your priority, and make remember: no multiplayer is better than broken, crappy multiplayer. You could even release the game with only single player and the basic multiplayer capabilities, then release an expansion with full multiplayer or something. Because Multiplayer will probably take plenty of work, and I'd hate to see the campaign turn out any less good because you invested too much in MP. But you don't need my advice

Wow. It's amazing how easily someone can erect a massive wall of text when their mind is full of ideas. Hope you don't die of old game while reading through it. Thanks for your attention.

[Megika]

It wasn't that gigantic...

Dismemberment would be fun. I agree, it would probably be best as a special mode or a challenge.

I liked how far people were sent flying in Lugaru. It was funny and unique. The only problem with it I had was that the kick wolves would do when you were crouching was way too fast and powerful.

I agree with what you say on achievements, except about an achievement you get for earning every other achievement. This is good to have, in my opinion, because you can use it as proof/bragging rights; rather than having to post a screenshot of every single page of achievements, you can just post the one. Of course this is assuming there are too many achievements for that to be convenient.

no multiplayer is better than broken, crappy multiplayer

I completely disagree with this. It is always better to have some multiplayer than none, unless you're being forced to play multiplayer (which you will not be). As an example, it's better to have multiplayer which is very laggy over the internet but good over LAN than none. It's better to have buggy multiplayer than none. No matter how buggy or bad it is, it's never worse than none at all.

[Untadaike]

no multiplayer is better than broken, crappy multiplayer

I completely disagree with this. It is always better to have some multiplayer than none, unless you're being forced to play multiplayer (which you will not be). As an example, it's better to have multiplayer which is very laggy over the internet but good over LAN than none. It's better to have buggy multiplayer than none. No matter how buggy or bad it is, it's never worse than none at all.

Yeah, and if it is crappy, but it's still there, then there'd be opportunity for, you know, fan fixes, since it's open source. (right?)

[Zhukov]

...since it's open source. (right?)

Umm...

No.

[Dragoon_Jett]

It wasn't that gigantic...

Dismemberment would be fun. I agree, it would probably be best as a special mode or a challenge.

I liked how far people were sent flying in Lugaru. It was funny and unique. The only problem with it I had was that the kick wolves would do when you were crouching was way too fast and powerful.

I agree with what you say on achievements, except about an achievement you get for earning every other achievement. This is good to have, in my opinion, because you can use it as proof/bragging rights; rather than having to post a screenshot of every single page of achievements, you can just post the one. Of course this is assuming there are too many achievements for that to be convenient.

no multiplayer is better than broken, crappy multiplayer

I completely disagree with this. It is always better to have some multiplayer than none, unless you're being forced to play multiplayer (which you will not be). As an example, it's better to have multiplayer which is very laggy over the internet but good over LAN than none. It's better to have buggy multiplayer than none. No matter how buggy or bad it is, it's never worse than none at all.

Its bad but its good for bad but thats bad but its ok. Rightam I getting it I am getting it or am I not or but am I, I am sure I am but you should but BUT BUT BUT.

[Untadaike]

...since it's open source. (right?)

Umm...

No.

Then how in the world will modding be possible? Do you not need the engine code? Are there scripts that can be edited?

[PetzI]

...since it's open source. (right?)

Umm...

No.

Then how in the world will modding be possible? Do you not need the engine code? Are there scripts that can be edited?

Through scripts and the other modding tools they give us, like the map editor. Warcraft 3 wasnt open source, and look at that mod community.

Btw, what are your thoughts on the other topics?

[Untadaike]

Through scripts and the other modding tools they give us, like the map editor. Warcraft 3 wasnt open source, and look at that mod community.

Btw, what are your thoughts on the other topics?

Okay, thanks. I didn't know what I was talking about.

[Untadaike]

Flying
One of the things that made me laugh in Lugaru was that rabbits would often show flying abilities well-beyond the ones a rabbit should have. Particularly when another rabbit would kick them and they would ragdollidly be sent flying. This was funny and felt gratifying, but was pretty unrealistic. So I was wondering how much this will be preserved in Overgrowth. If you make it too realistic, it will lose the charm Lugaru had of being able to kick an opponent's body at 50km/h into another opponent and knock him down, or to watch yourself ragdoll and go int othe sun after being bashed in the face by a wolf. But these things made the game look unprofessional and unrefined. This will require a lot of thought at balance from you.

I really don't want this game attribute to return. When an oppenent went flying, as amusing as it was, once a player got good, that left a huge opening where the player could wait by the place where the enemy was going to fall and rape him when he got to his feet. The enemies should be well-balanced on their feet, recover quickly and immediately return ferociously to kill you.

(Sorry about the double post)

[PetzI]

I really don't want this game attribute to return. When an oppenent went flying, as amusing as it was, once a player got good, that left a huge opening where the player could wait by the place where the enemy was going to fall and rape him when he got to his feet. The enemies should be well-balanced on their feet, recover quickly and immediately return ferociously to kill you.

That's a balance issue, it's not really a problem. If it's not balanced, they'll find a way to fix it. The issue I was more worried about was realism/"seriousness" vs the joy of watching an enemy fly into the horizon from your leg cannon.

[Megika]

I think the joy of seeing an enemy fly into the horizon from your leg cannon should return.

I found that the only two attacks which really sent an enemy flying a long distance were the leg cannon (duh) and the crouch-kick (to clarify, I mean the kick you do when an enemy is crouching or rolling). The crouch kick should most certainly not hold such power, considering its speed.

The only other time I've found that I can send people flying is when I'm standing at the top of a cliff/building/hill - enemies fall and slide down the hill, or just fall straight to the bottom.

I think one thing Untadaike's saying is that it's too easy too, as an example, leg sweep an enemy, do one of the prone kicks (quick kicks delivered to an enemy who's knocked down), wait for them to get up while holding down attack, knock them over again (if you stand behind them they can almost NEVER block it), prone kick, attack, etc etc etc.

The only way enemies can get out of it is by rolling away - which adds another factor of luck. If you're lucky and positioned correctly, and they happen to roll in the right direction, you can crouch-kick them. Which, as I mentioned, is overpowered.

[tokage]

The things you are saying are all valid and maybe it is too easy sometimes. But you really need the downtime when you fight against multiple enemies. Send one of them flying then deal with the other one.
And of course it is just hilarious, when they fly for miles.

[Zhukov]

Dismemberment:
I cannot think of a single game in which dismemberment really added anything. It's a minor decoration at best. Plus, it often ends up looking a bit silly.

Flying:
Unwillingly airborne enemies are great fun, but they look a bit ridiculous. So keep it in, but tone it down a little. I think it would be better if the effect were a bit less 'sailing through the air' and a bit more 'tumbling along the ground'.
Also, make the effect rarer. If enemies are sent flying every few seconds it detracts from the effect of each individual occurrence.

Achievements:
Meh. Personally, I think the whole achievement/trophy trend is downright moronic. Illusionary accomplishment at best, virtual penis inflation at worst. It might be worthwhile if (a) the achievements were actually hard to get and (b) there were "rewards" beyond a you-just-did-this message.

[tokage]

Dismemberment:
I cannot think of a single game in which dismemberment really added anything. It's a minor decoration at best. Plus, it often ends up looking a bit silly.

Alien vs. Predator
Although, technically, it was only decapitation that had a meaning.
I basically agree with your point though.
I think there was a thread about it sometime, somewhere. And the best argument against dismemberment is: If there is, it should also happen to yourself. But with that come game play and story problems.

[Megika]

And the best argument against dismemberment is: If there is, it should also happen to yourself. But with that come game play and story problems.

That's untrue, unless you're making it possible to stay alive post-dismemberment (right...).

Regarding gameplay problems, simply make it so you (and enemies) can't be dismembered unless it's a killing blow (I don't know how possible this is).

Regarding story problems, no more problems than simply being, say, stabbed through the throat. Unless, again, you can stay alive post-dismemberment.

As long as it must be a killing blow to dismember, I don't think there's a problem there.

Dismemberment:
I cannot think of a single game in which dismemberment really added anything. It's a minor decoration at best. Plus, it often ends up looking a bit silly.

Never played Toribash, I suppose?

I agree though, it wouldn't add anything to Overgrowth - it would indeed be a minor decoration, and I wouldn't want it to be put before just about anything else.

Regarding the silliness: well, that's why it would be in a bonus mode.

Flying:
Unwillingly airborne enemies are great fun, but they look a bit ridiculous. So keep it in, but tone it down a little. I think it would be better if the effect were a bit less 'sailing through the air' and a bit more 'tumbling along the ground'.
Also, make the effect rarer. If enemies are sent flying every few seconds it detracts from the effect of each individual occurrence.

/agree on all counts

Achievements:
Meh. Personally, I think the whole achievement/trophy trend is downright moronic. Illusionary accomplishment at best, virtual penis inflation at worst. It might be worthwhile if (a) the achievements were actually hard to get and (b) there were "rewards" beyond a you-just-did-this message.

I think it would, under the circumstances you specified, be good. They certainly shouldn't be generic stuff you do anyway - "Kill 1000 enemies", "Finish the game on Easy" etc. They should be interesting and things you wouldn't usually get by accident - this thread has some rather good ones.