IGD: Game Difficulty

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Phoenixwarrior141
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IGD: Game Difficulty

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:50 am

Quiet time. I'm Writing this at 2:30 in the morning, shut up at my Grammar

So, I recently tried to test my faith in Humanity

So I read through the Negative review section for FTL: Faster Than Light

*Messages Temple*

Oh, Why...Why?...WHY?

Okay, I thought, there's still some hope, they're not all that bad...

*Deep Breath* Let's try the Dark Souls forums

Oh they're not bad at all OH WHAT THE FU-

*Reads through this: http://steamcommunity.com/app/211420/di ... 5792894993*

*Faith in Humanity flies away*

Why...

*Messages temple again/Talks Slowly* Oh, god I want a refund...

Damn you Steam, and you're blatant attempt to make some profit...

*Yawns* I honestly can't be bother with my Template now

Discuss...

(I made this because reasons...)
Above is the original thread, ignore it.

This thread is talking about how games should handle difficulty.

Also, here's a few informative articles about game difficulty:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/02/ ... -rpgs.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/11/ ... asier.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_(game_design)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_ga ... _balancing

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3 ... hp?print=1

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ultyTropes

Also for the most of this new discussion, I'm going to try and make up some cardinal rules for making effective game difficulty, ignore this, just know it's happening and I'm trying to make observations.
Discuss (Sorry for the debacle above, I'll try not to let it happen again)!
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Endoperez
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Endoperez » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:52 pm

Read a book, faith restored. Or look at happy kittens, and you're too cheerful to care.

Watch Extra Credits for serious discussion about games. Ot anything that's actually ABOUT discussing games, instead of voicing random complaints.

Or you can just continue looking at things you don't like, and complaining that you looked at the thing you didn't like.

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Grayswandir
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Grayswandir » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:29 pm

You're trying too hard.

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Phoenixwarrior141
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:35 pm

Endoperez wrote:Read a book, faith restored. Or look at happy kittens, and you're too cheerful to care.

Watch Extra Credits for serious discussion about games. Ot anything that's actually ABOUT discussing games, instead of voicing random complaints.

Or you can just continue looking at things you don't like, and complaining that you looked at the thing you didn't like.
M'kay NEXT
Grayswandir wrote:You're trying too hard.
Not hard enough...

Did this out of randomness, just needed to do it.

(I'll post the Censorship discussion this weekend.)

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Riparian
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Riparian » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:48 pm

This is how I restored my faith in that game....

Image

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:09 pm

STAHP MOCKING ME.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Jacktheawesome » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:42 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Quiet time. I'm Writing this at 2:30 in the morning, shut up at my Grammar

So, I recently tried to test my faith in Humanity

So I read through the Negative review section for FTL: Faster Than Light

*Messages Temple*

Oh, Why...Why?...WHY?

Okay, I thought, there's still some hope, they're not all that bad...

*Deep Breath* Let's try the Dark Souls forums

Oh they're not bad at all OH WHAT THE FU-

*Reads through this: http://steamcommunity.com/app/211420/di ... 5792894993*

*Faith in Humanity flies away*

Why...

*Messages temple again/Talks Slowly* Oh, god I want a refund...

Damn you Steam, and you're blatant attempt to make some profit...

*Yawns* I honestly can't be bother with my Template now

Discuss...

(I made this because reasons...)
Image

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Ragdollmaster
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Ragdollmaster » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:15 pm

Wow, there are people who have different opinions from you, and some people aren't good at certain video games. This is truly cause for you to lose faith in humanity and sit there rubbing your head like someone facing actual problems.

Seriously, are you 12? Tell me you're 12 and it'll make this a little better.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:23 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:Wow, there are people who have different opinions from you, and some people aren't good at certain video games. This is truly cause for you to lose faith in humanity and sit there rubbing your head like someone facing actual problems.

Seriously, are you 12? Tell me you're 12 and it'll make this a little better.
NO.

NO ONE HAS DIFFERENT OPINIONS.
Fuck me, I get that people have different opinions but the negative review section for FTL is pure idiocy.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Grayswandir » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:26 pm


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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:07 pm

I disagree with both of those.

For me there are two versions of Easy and Hard difficulties that are functional within their premise:

Games where one has to stand on their own two feet and not rely on the games helping them and Games the let the player crush hordes of enemies for the fun of watching them die and flee.

Also, re-purposing the thread to talk about actual game difficulty.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Endoperez » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:06 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
I disagree with both of those.

For me there are two versions of Easy and Hard difficulties that are functional within their premise:

Games where one has to stand on their own two feet and not rely on the games helping them and Games the let the player crush hordes of enemies for the fun of watching them die and flee.

Also, re-purposing the thread to talk about actual game difficulty.
Jeff Vogel has made and sold games for longer than 20 years. That's probably longer than about half the people in this thread have been alive.

Jeff Vogel started thinking that games should be hard. Then he made hard games, analyzed the results, the feedback, sales, player satisfaction etc. Based on this information, he changed his opinion.

Since his opinion is backed by all that data, unless you can give us reasons better than "for me", "in my opinion" or "I think", I'll not have any reason to consider you statements as anything but whining. You need to either get some facts about what players like, statistics, data or sales numbers... or to explain why Jeff's opinion isn't valid.

For example, perhaps his opinion, which has been collected in the decades when gamers were hardcore, doesn't correctly describe the current, more casual audience. That would most likely mean he's still making his games too hard to reach the casuals. :D

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:30 pm

Jeff Vogel has made and sold games for longer than 20 years. That's probably longer than about half the people in this thread have been alive.
More on that later.

Jeff Vogel started thinking that games should be hard. Then he made hard games, analyzed the results, the feedback, sales, player satisfaction etc. Based on this information, he changed his opinion.
I'm not a developer, but Jeff seems to be making games to appeal to the most people, (Thank you Game Theory for my following statement), he could easily make many games, that appeal to different people (A Hard game, an Easy game, and something else).

Besides, a casual game will appeal to:

- Open Minded hardcore gamers (Proof: The transition from Easy games to Hard games is harder then the reverse).

- Casual gamers.

- The patrons of it's genre(s) (Like RPG lovers who play RPGs).

Casual games appeal to more audiences (Assuming the game is strictly one genre, with few aspects from other genres) then Hardcore games.
Since his opinion is backed by all that data, unless you can give us reasons better than "for me", "in my opinion" or "I think", I'll not have any reason to consider you statements as anything but whining.
I was never whining. Games, hard or easy are meant to be fun, when a game meant to be hard isn't, I'm not happy.
You need to either get some facts about what players like, statistics, data or sales numbers... or to explain why Jeff's opinion isn't valid.
#1: Jeff is a developer who wants to make as much money (Or gamers happy with his product, I assume money) as possible, Casual games appeal to a much larger audience then Hardcore games.

#2:
the game should be accessible to your mom or average eight-year old.
I'm sorry, I'll never develop a game if it has to be accessible to an eight year old, Casual gamers would find that monotonous and boring.

#3:
When a player is on the default difficult level, has built his or her characters poorly, and is playing straight through the main storyline with mediocre tactics, that player should almost never be killed.


Tell me how that could be considered fun. Even casuals like a sense of difficulty, even if it's built to make them THINK they'll lose, but actually they'll win.
For example, perhaps his opinion, which has been collected in the decades when gamers were hardcore, doesn't correctly describe the current, more casual audience. That would most likely mean he's still making his games too hard to reach the casuals. :D
That helps, but with the audiences ever changing, and genre standards changing as well, in a few years these rules will be false, as genres will have changed by then.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Endoperez » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:49 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Jeff Vogel started thinking that games should be hard. Then he made hard games, analyzed the results, the feedback, sales, player satisfaction etc. Based on this information, he changed his opinion.
I'm not a developer, but Jeff seems to be making games to appeal to the most people, (Thank you Game Theory for my following statement), he could easily make many games, that appeal to different people (A Hard game, an Easy game, and something else).
Geneforge 4 sold under 4000 copies. He's making niche games for a niche audience.
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fi/2009/03/s ... -sell.html

He's making money out of the "long tail" - he's making niche games, so he doesn't have much competition, and won't have in the future either. The people, few as they are, who like his games, will come to him and buy his outdated games, because even outdated, they're still near the top of this particular niche.
Few new sales for most of his games every month, at a few dozen bucks per game, is enough to eventually make a profit.
Besides, a casual game will appeal to:

- Open Minded hardcore gamers (Proof: The transition from Easy games to Hard games is harder then the reverse).

- Casual gamers.

- The patrons of it's genre(s) (Like RPG lovers who play RPGs).

Casual games appeal to more audiences (Assuming the game is strictly one genre, with few aspects from other genres) then Hardcore games.
I agree with this. Making a game more casual will attract a larger audience. That's why making an alternate difficulty level that's easier than normal might be an economically sound decision. "Might be" because I don't know if casuals care about easier difficulty modes, and whether that affects sales.
Since his opinion is backed by all that data, unless you can give us reasons better than "for me", "in my opinion" or "I think", I'll not have any reason to consider you statements as anything but whining.
I was never whining. Games, hard or easy are meant to be fun, when a game meant to be hard isn't, I'm not happy.
"I'M NOT HAPPY."
"THIS ISN'T WHAT I WANT."
"I'M NOT WHINING."

If it squeaks like a hare and bleeds like a hare, it just might be one...
You need to either get some facts about what players like, statistics, data or sales numbers... or to explain why Jeff's opinion isn't valid.
#1: Jeff is a developer who wants to make as much money (Or gamers happy with his product, I assume money) as possible, Casual games appeal to a much larger audience then Hardcore games.

#2:
the game should be accessible to your mom or average eight-year old.
I'm sorry, I'll never develop a game if it has to be accessible to an eight year old, Casual gamers would find that monotonous and boring.
#1
Jeff is a developer who knows he'll never get rich, but also has found a way to feed his family while doing something he enjoys. He has a niche product, and a dedicated fanbase. He's making games for his audience, for those people who have very specific tastes on oldschool RPGs, and that genre most probably won't ever become big in the way MineCraft, MOBAs or racing games are right now.

#2
This is your opinion, again. Who are you, to give us your opinion and expect us to respect it?

I would make a game for an 8-year-old. 8 months and 80 years too. They'd be three totally different games, with lots of interesting creative challenges required for each. And yet my willingness to do it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's just something I would do, and that's that. We're not discussing "what would I do", but "what should be".

MineCraft is accessible to 8-year-olds. It's big. It's huge. I haven't tried it because I don't find it interesting (I'm not fan of sandboxes), but that doesn't make it a bad game.
#3:
When a player is on the default difficult level, has built his or her characters poorly, and is playing straight through the main storyline with mediocre tactics, that player should almost never be killed.


Tell me how that could be considered fun. Even casuals like a sense of difficulty, even if it's built to make them THINK they'll lose, but actually they'll win.
I played Final Fantasy Tactics ages ago. I was bad at the game. I got stuck, had to grind, it wasn't fun, I quit.
I played Final Fantasy Tactics recently. I look up some guides, had a plan for what I want to do, and I'm breezing through the game without much difficulty at all. It's not challenging, but it's very fun!

Do you enjoy playing games you've mastered, even when they don't really challenge you like they once did? Smashing heads in Overgrowth, maybe, being the unstoppable killing machine who kills everything? Do you have a habit of pressing the Z key for faster respawns?

I do that sort of stuff. It's fun. It makes me feel competent, powerful. That is a good feeling, ergo, it makes me feel good.

Note that it's "almost never be killed", not "almost never be challenged at all".
For example, perhaps his opinion, which has been collected in the decades when gamers were hardcore, doesn't correctly describe the current, more casual audience. That would most likely mean he's still making his games too hard to reach the casuals. :D
That helps, but with the audiences ever changing, and genre standards changing as well, in a few years these rules will be false, as genres will have changed by then.
He's doing oldschool games for a niche audience, and one of his more recent projects was remaking some of his earliest games with better graphics.
His games are very different from Angry Birds Epic, which would be a casual RPG of the sort that would follow the changing genre standards.

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:14 pm

Geneforge 4 sold under 4000 copies. He's making niche games for a niche audience.
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fi/2009/03/s ... -sell.html

He's making money out of the "long tail" - he's making niche games, so he doesn't have much competition, and won't have in the future either. The people, few as they are, who like his games, will come to him and buy his outdated games, because even outdated, they're still near the top of this particular niche.
Few new sales for most of his games every month, at a few dozen bucks per game, is enough to eventually make a profit.
In a few years, due to how RPG genre standards evolve, his games might be the norm
I agree with this. Making a game more casual will attract a larger audience. That's why making an alternate difficulty level that's easier than normal might be an economically sound decision. "Might be" because I don't know if casuals care about easier difficulty modes, and whether that affects sales.
I'll address that later.
"I'M NOT HAPPY."
"THIS ISN'T WHAT I WANT."
"I'M NOT WHINING."

If it squeaks like a hare and bleeds like a hare, it just might be one...
But I'm a fucking Phoenix...
#1
Jeff is a developer who knows he'll never get rich, but also has found a way to feed his family while doing something he enjoys. He has a niche product, and a dedicated fanbase. He's making games for his audience, for those people who have very specific tastes on oldschool RPGs, and that genre most probably won't ever become big in the way MineCraft, MOBAs or racing games are right now.
Like I said, genre standards evolve
#2
This is your opinion, again. Who are you, to give us your opinion and expect us to respect it?

I would make a game for an 8-year-old. 8 months and 80 years too. They'd be three totally different games, with lots of interesting creative challenges required for each. And yet my willingness to do it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's just something I would do, and that's that. We're not discussing "what would I do", but "what should be".

MineCraft is accessible to 8-year-olds. It's big. It's huge. I haven't tried it because I don't find it interesting (I'm not fan of sandboxes), but that doesn't make it a bad game.
Like I said: Even casuals like a sense of difficulty, even if it's built to make them THINK they'll lose, but actually they'll win.

#3:
I played Final Fantasy Tactics ages ago. I was bad at the game. I got stuck, had to grind, it wasn't fun, I quit.
I played Final Fantasy Tactics recently. I look up some guides, had a plan for what I want to do, and I'm breezing through the game without much difficulty at all. It's not challenging, but it's very fun!

Do you enjoy playing games you've mastered, even when they don't really challenge you like they once did? Smashing heads in Overgrowth, maybe, being the unstoppable killing machine who kills everything? Do you have a habit of pressing the Z key for faster respawns?

I do that sort of stuff. It's fun. It makes me feel competent, powerful. That is a good feeling, ergo, it makes me feel good.

Note that it's "almost never be killed", not "almost never be challenged at all".
I used to play Army of Two.

I crushed the enemy, but still got a feeling of accomplishment because I FELT like I would die at anytime.

Casual players get the rush of feeling like a badass by crushing everything.

Hardcores get this by overcoming a difficult obstacle.

While Hardcore gamers (Really hardcore) will try and argue the point of "A game is only as hardest as it's easiest difficulty setting" people who like a challenge will still just play on the harder difficulty setting.

The deep insensitive hardcore gamer in me wants me to say "Well, they aren't actually accomplishing anything so they shouldn't feel good!"

But that would be wrong, they feel like they're accomplishing something, but they might not be.

Hardcore gamers are accomplishing something, and feel good as a result.

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