Hatred: The Game From God

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Endoperez
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:00 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote: that nobody else has mentioned, it's more likely because it doesn't actually work rather than you being a genius at 12.

There's a world of difference between the two games and I can only assume that if you can't see the many separating factors, you're either too young or too bullheaded to understand them.
Your argument is 'you're dumb and a kid and all you say is dumb!' so you're being rather hypocritical here.

I haven't seen anyone analyze stylistic differences between Postal and Hatred. Is there anything? Extra Credits might gave done something, it would probably be a good topic for how to draw the lines of acceptable or not, fun violence or horrifying violence etc.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:08 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:You fail to notice how they both have people who shoot back and innocents who don't
Oh lord, I can't tell if you're actually this silly or a really dedicated troll going for the long con. Graphics, presentation, story, character motivation and more all make a difference in how the gameplay is perceived.
We're talking about Postal here. Which has none of that. Try again.

There's a world of difference between the two games and I can only assume that if you can't see the many separating factors, you're either too young or too bullheaded to understand them.
No there isn't. There really, really isn't.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:16 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: We're talking about Postal here. Which has none of that. Try again.
It had graphics and presentation at least. Posral isn't set in the real world, but in a toybox that looks like it, an imitation... Or smthng like that.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:19 pm

For the time it came out, it was pretty realistic.

Hell, the execution is the same

Postal dude: Says something, shoots dude multiple time.

Hatred dude: Same thing from the trailer among other things.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:26 pm

Endoperez wrote:Your argument is 'you're dumb and a kid and all you say is dumb!' so you're being rather hypocritical here.
More that a kid should appreciate that older people aren't pulling shit out of their asses but have much more experience and a stronger basis for their opinions.
Endoperez wrote:I haven't seen anyone analyze stylistic differences between Postal and Hatred. Is there anything? Extra Credits might gave done something, it would probably be a good topic for how to draw the lines of acceptable or not, fun violence or horrifying violence etc.
What little there is to Postal implies the main character is sort of alienated by the town, and it's implied that he's being kicked out / evicted of his home (see the moving van in the first level), which leads to him snapping and, y'know, going postal. Being a much older game, the graphics are pretty dated, and I think this makes a big difference. The closer that visuals/sound/environment get to reality, the more disturbing graphic violence can become. Nobody in their right mind will stir up shit about Doom, but something like this scene from Black Ops drew controversy because in modern gaming, violence is no longer represented by 10 red pixels next to a barely humanoid figure.

"Fun" violence is usually justified through a couple of ways. Typically you are killing "bad guys" (see: most modern shooters) like terrorists, criminals, enemy soldiers, what have you. You're not supposed to feel any remorse for them. Deaths aren't shown in close-up detail, nor are they drawn out: you shoot a guy, he falls down, you move on to shoot the next guy. Over and done with. He's not making any noise or slowly dying over a period of hours. Nothing to really unnerve you with. Some games, particularly sandbox/freeroamers like GTA, Saint's Row, or Just Cause just feature comically over the top violence which is nearly cartoony, so that's another way of making it "acceptable."

The issue with games that feature very graphic, brutal, drawn-out violence- in the past, you probably remember Manhunt being banned in a bunch of places for the fact that the entire game is basically based on systemically executing every enemy in each level in gory detail- is that realistic violence still unnerves people. We're desensitized to the neat and clean portrayal of death in most action movies and TV serials and mainstream video games. Anything that shows you just how horrifying violence can be- for instance, in the film world, Saving Private Ryan- often unnerves quite a few people because that level of graphical detail is still shocking to see. You don't bat an eye at random criminals being shot on whatever crime show is most popular right now, but an 18 year old kid on Omaha holding his entrails and sobbing for his mother probably isn't something you want to watch on repeat, yeah?

Of course, in cinema, shocking violence is often used for emphasis, for psychological effect, etc. It's used in very dark moments, always with context and purpose. Even in Manhunt, you're being used by an insane criminal and you're fighting for your survival against insane gangbangers. It's not Badass von Edgy with his trenchcoat deciding 'fuk this gay wurld.'
We're talking about Postal here. Which has none of that. Try again.
Postal doesn't have graphics? It's not presented? There's no story or character motivation? Are you actually this fucking daft? What is that even supposed to mean?
No there isn't. There really, really isn't.
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:28 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:For the time it came out, it was pretty realistic.
Times change. Line art can never be photorealistic, but there's more and less realistic lineart styles. In those days games couldn't be like they are today. Postal wasn't anywhere the realism of Hatred.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:33 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:
More that a kid should appreciate that older people aren't pulling shit out of their asses but have much more experience and a stronger basis for their opinions.
I'm still disappointed at my father over the one time, years and yeara ago, he said something like 'I'm right and you're wrong because I'm old and know how things are.'

Even if he's right that time, it's a horrible argument.

Plus you don't actually know if you've got more experience. You've just assumed you are superior with no facts, only anecdotes.


I agree with your main point. Exactly that! I think there's slasher movies that revel in the gore and violence though. If it's allowed for movies, games are ok too... I guess?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:18 pm

Endoperez wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:For the time it came out, it was pretty realistic.
Times change. Line art can never be photorealistic, but there's more and less realistic lineart styles. In those days games couldn't be like they are today. Postal wasn't anywhere the realism of Hatred.
It was at the time. Hell Hatred uses similar movement mechanics and methods to the point the animation looks surprisingly similar.

You can't exactly blame Postal for being unrealistic by graphical standards when it came out before Call of Duty was setting such standards, or indies had access to the tools to mimic them.

So, it's a moot argument.
What little there is to Postal implies the main character is sort of alienated by the town, and it's implied that he's being kicked out / evicted of his home (see the moving van in the first level), which leads to him snapping and, y'know, going postal.
Apparently he was the victim of a government conspiracy so he goes and kills a bunch of people. Innocent people.
Being a much older game, the graphics are pretty dated, and I think this makes a big difference.
Again, for the time it was realistic.
The closer that visuals/sound/environment get to reality, the more disturbing graphic violence can become. Nobody in their right mind will stir up shit about Doom, but something like this scene from Black Ops drew controversy because in modern gaming, violence is no longer represented by 10 red pixels next to a barely humanoid figure.
What about Hotline Miami? Where does that stay?

[/quote]"Fun" violence is usually justified through a couple of ways.[/quote]
Stop. Right. There. Why do we need to justify it? We don't. Fun is fun after all.

Postal doesn't have graphics? It's not presented? There's no story or character motivation? Are you actually this fucking daft? What is that even supposed to mean?
Looking at the gameplay and after PLAYING Postal, the so called "Worlds of difference" aren't there. The gameplay is the same (The sole difference is objective), the executions of surprisingly similar. And no, zero justifiable reasons to kill people in either Postal or Hatred. I can tell you that there isn't a whole lot of difference between Postal and Hatred, even the walking works in similar ways.

You're trying to make something out of nothing. It ain't working.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:47 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: It was at the time. Hell Hatred uses similar movement mechanics and methods to the point the animation looks surprisingly similar.

You can't exactly blame Postal for being unrealistic by graphical standards when it came out before Call of Duty was setting such standards, or indies had access to the tools to mimic them.
Camera defines realism. Games' virtual cameras are now getting close. Also literally, within a metre or so.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:11 pm

For the time it was realistic
There's no such thing. Realism is not a relative thing to achieve. Realism is when the media in question looks like reality. Postal isn't going to fool anyone into thinking it's real life. Just because it's realistic in comparison to contemporary games doesn't mean that back when it was released, people looked at it and said "WOW JUST LIKE REAL LIFE," much in the same way that nobody thought Space Invaders had realistic graphics even though I'm sure they were the best they could do at the time.
What about Hotline Miami? Where does that stay?


Hotline Miami, as has been said countless times before, is over the top satire. It is cartoonish and uses brutality for stylistic emphasis.
And no, zero justifiable reasons to kill people in either Postal or Hatred.
Postal is about an insane protagonist. Everything from the very title to his journal entries support this. Hatred is a game about a man who inexplicably hates people that have done nothing to him. Objective/motivation IS a big difference. It is in fact the single biggest difference out of any individual element in the equation. Motive, context, and results are the difference between an act of heroism and an act of terrorism. Why would they suddenly not be important in comparing games?
even the walking works in similar ways.
Are you taking the piss out of yourself? You bring up a simple mechanical similarity when all of the controversy over the game and everything that's been discussed so far in the thread has to do with what's portrayed in the game. Do you think any of the people who didn't care about Postal but care about Hatred somehow found player movement to be a significant factor?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:58 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote: There's no such thing. Realism is not a relative thing to achieve.
Then Hatred isn't either. Since it lacks in color, realistic models and gore, and VR support.

In a few hundred years this game won't be realistic YET you've stated in the past that Hatred is realistic.

Huh? Seems a bit hypocritical don't it?

Hotline Miami, as has been said countless times before, is over the top satire. It is cartoonish and uses brutality for stylistic emphasis.
I find that hard to believe when Hotline Miami isn't any more funny then Postal. I doubt anyone laughed at that.
Postal is about an insane protagonist.
So is Hatred.

Are you taking the piss out of yourself? You bring up a simple mechanical similarity when all of the controversy over the game and everything that's been discussed so far in the thread has to do with what's portrayed in the game. Do you think any of the people who didn't care about Postal but care about Hatred somehow found player movement to be a significant factor?
It was mostly just an example. But a lot of the mechanics are similar between the games

A list:

- Camera view

- Execution animations

- Various weapons at the player's disposal.

- Open possibility to kill normal people

- Actively hostile police force

- Large health pool

And a potential suicide mechanic.

And no, I doubt most people playing Postal took their time to look away from the violence or halt it altogether to realize the plot. To anyone else it seems like you're just murdering people just because.

Hell, it's gonna get a remake and look the like Hatred. What then?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:09 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Then Hatred isn't either. Since it lacks in color, realistic models and gore, and VR support.
Okay, you really don't get it. There's nothing more to discuss there.

I find that hard to believe when Hotline Miami isn't any more funny then Postal. I doubt anyone laughed at that.
Satire doesn't have to be comical. Again, you are not actually understanding the issue at hand.
So is Hatred (about an insane protagonist)
There's nothing to really suggest that. He seems fairly lucid to me. Just super edgy. Whereas the journal writings in Postal and the background of the character support the insanity.
- Camera view
Isometric, like a few other hundred games
- Execution animations
They have them, yes, but they are much different both in levels of detail and general appearance
- Various weapons at the player's disposal.
So nearly any game
- Open possibility to kill normal people
So again, nearly any shooter
- Actively hostile police force
So GTA, Just Cause, Far Cry
- Large health pool
Honestly?
And a potential suicide mechanic.
Haven't heard of this for Hatred and I don't see it in Postal.
And no, I doubt most people playing Postal took their time to look away from the violence or halt it altogether to realize the plot.
You may not have because you seem to only play games at face value, but the first thing you see when starting Postal is a rather insanely written journal entry by the protagonist. I'm pretty sure most people did indeed realize the plot. It's not some crack theory.
Hell, it's gonna get a remake and look the like Hatred. What then?
It has two sequels, which get increasingly over the top and ridiculous. I don't see why the original would be remade. If it was remade with modern graphics and featured the same level of violence as Hatred, people would react the same as they did towards Hatred. You don't seem to be grasping that the visuals are a large part of the equation. Dwarf Fortress is arguably the most brutal game in existence, but since the graphics are either absent or made with ASCII characters and there's no detailed animations for the ridiculous violence in the game, nobody cares.

E: Oh yeah, I managed to miss this piece of wisdom earlier:
Stop. Right. There. Why do we need to justify it? We don't. Fun is fun after all.
Why do you need to justify splattering gore all over the place? Try reading the rest of that paragraph instead of giving a clever non-answer to a detailed point of view.

"Fun is fun." That's an opinion. That's a perspective. It needs to be supported and justified. It needs to have a context or basis to work in. Otherwise you can take that and say, "Why is murder in real life bad? If it's fun, hey, fun is fun."

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:39 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote: Okay, you really don't get it. There's nothing more to discuss there.
My point was that since your argument is that Hatred is realistic, it won't be in a few years when we have more realistic graphics. Just like Postal. So your point was moot because Hatred ISN'T going to be realistic in a few hundred years, just like Postal isn't realistic now.

Satire doesn't have to be comical. Again, you are not actually understanding the issue at hand.
Then explain how it was satire.

Responses
My point wasn't that these made these games unique, that they were properties shared by both games that makes them seem very similar.

You may not have because you seem to only play games at face value, but the first thing you see when starting Postal is a rather insanely written journal entry by the protagonist. I'm pretty sure most people did indeed realize the plot. It's not some crack theory.
I know. That doesn't mean everyone did. I doubt everyone knew what the plot was until they did a little bit of looking.
It has two sequels, which get increasingly over the top and ridiculous. I don't see why the original would be remade. If it was remade with modern graphics and featured the same level of violence as Hatred, people would react the same as they did towards Hatred. You don't seem to be grasping that the visuals are a large part of the equation. Dwarf Fortress is arguably the most brutal game in existence, but since the graphics are either absent or made with ASCII characters and there's no detailed animations for the ridiculous violence in the game, nobody cares.
Here's a bit of research for you:

http://www.pcgamer.com/postal-redux-con ... 0&ns_fee=0

Heh.

Why do you need to justify splattering gore all over the place? Try reading the rest of that paragraph instead of giving a clever non-answer to a detailed point of view.

"Fun is fun." That's an opinion. That's a perspective. It needs to be supported and justified. It needs to have a context or basis to work in. Otherwise you can take that and say, "Why is murder in real life bad? If it's fun, hey, fun is fun."
Why do we need to justify having fun where people ARE NOT GETTING HURT? That isn't exactly an opinion. How people have fun is an opinion. There's a big difference between saying "People should have fun this way" and "People should have fun".

Again, justifying fun violence isn't something that has to be done. It's just a matter of preference. Justifying the enjoyment of such actions is simply saying it's fun. There doesn't need to be any other justification. No repercussions. No reason not to.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:22 am

My point was that since your argument is that Hatred is realistic, it won't be in a few years when we have more realistic graphics. Just like Postal. So your point was moot because Hatred ISN'T going to be realistic in a few hundred years, just like Postal isn't realistic now.
Re-read what I wrote. Realism doesn't change over time. Hatred looks very realistic. It's not as realistic as the Oculus Rift 17 (now with Smell-o-vision (TM) ) will be, but it's still much, much higher detail than Postal 1.
Then explain how it was satire.
Already did.
that they were properties shared by both games that makes them seem very similar.
And the point is that these properties aren't what's up for discussion or why Postal was considered somewhat controversial and why Hatred is very much so.
Postal remake
I'm surprised that Running With Scissors isn't bankrupt, but I guess they probably don't have very many employees. Anyways, I guess it makes sense since their games have gotten steadily worse that they're trying to go back to an old formula. In any case, if they make the graphics as realistic as Hatred's, yes, you will probably see a similar response. If their "HD redrawn art" is about as HD as the difference of original Cave Story versus Cave Story Plus- ie, maintaining the same aesthetics and styles but at a higher resolution / smoother graphics- it probably won't make much of as tir.
Why do we need to justify having fun where people ARE NOT GETTING HURT?
People aren't being directly physically hurt by someone playing a game, sure. But ->
Again, justifying fun violence isn't something that has to be done. It's just a matter of preference. Justifying the enjoyment of such actions is simply saying it's fun. There doesn't need to be any other justification. No repercussions. No reason not to.
Since this seems to be the crux of your argument: Unfortunately it's been proven that media does influence peoples' behaviors and personalities. Little in-the-moment things like driving faster because of high-tempo music, to overarching changes in perception like the generalized desensitization to violence present in society because it's so prevalent in media. "Fun" violence is a great way to blow off steam without having those sorts of effects carry over. "Serious" violence can be used for shock value and artistic emphasis. There's a clear difference between the two. Making "serious" violence, well, not so serious, is not a good thing. Why?

Playing Hatred probably won't make someone a serial killer. Probably. If it lets someone on the brink of insanity play out an insane power fantasy in all its gory details, they might snap. But that's not the point. The point is that games like it will make people care even less about violence than they already do if that level of violence becomes mainstream and accepted. This is a bad thing. There's a reason that lines have to be drawn. You likely don't understand because you're young and I sound like a nagging parent for actually caring about media content. You will when you're older.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:40 am

Ragdollmaster wrote: Re-read what I wrote. Realism doesn't change over time. Hatred looks very realistic. It's not as realistic as the Oculus Rift 17 (now with Smell-o-vision (TM) ) will be, but it's still much, much higher detail than Postal 1.
You're still making your own point moot. You say Hatred looks realistic but isn't as realistic as it could be, thus resulting in the game not being realistic or realism changing over time.

Already did.
I still fail to see it.
And the point is that these properties aren't what's up for discussion or why Postal was considered somewhat controversial and why Hatred is very much so.
Again, this is because Hatred released at a different time. Postal was extremely controversial when it came out (Because it looked good at the time) and now Hatred is that but far more grizzly. As realism becomes more realistic so does the reaction people have. 100 years from now the Soccer Moms Union is going to riot in the streets when we're killing people in a game by sending people into video games.
I'm surprised that Running With Scissors isn't bankrupt, but I guess they probably don't have very many employees. Anyways, I guess it makes sense since their games have gotten steadily worse that they're trying to go back to an old formula. In any case, if they make the graphics as realistic as Hatred's, yes, you will probably see a similar response. If their "HD redrawn art" is about as HD as the difference of original Cave Story versus Cave Story Plus- ie, maintaining the same aesthetics and styles but at a higher resolution / smoother graphics- it probably won't make much of as tir.
Seems like it would be full 3D now, so expect Hatred without the close ups.
Bunch of crap about people being influenced
Why do we need to draw lines? Where are the lines? What is the punishment for going over said lines?

Nothing. Society deems what is and isn't important. Again, Hatred is blissfully against that, it's against the idealism of "Boundaries" and games as art.

So, really, we're both arguing a moot point. Postal and Hatred share enough similarities to where I'm sure Hatred took some inspiration from Postal. Just because Hatred is out for media blood and actively trying to make Extra Credits cry doesn't discredit it as an experience at all. Let's all admit that we're monsters in games (Spec Ops proved this to me). All it comes down to is if this will be a good game. And given the fact it looks far better then Postal's remake, it will be.

In the end, nothing is worth arguing. Because whether you like it or not the game is gonna get made and people are gonna like it. The fact that invisible lines dictate how we should feel about things doesn't change that. Especially when Brothers in Arms showed pretty graphic corpses in it's most recent release (Which I need more of. FUCK GEARBOX GIMME) and Hotline Miami also showed far more violence, and Spec Ops also did. Context means little when it comes down to it. Since in the end the result is the same:

Someone died.

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